Reading this is starting to convince me I should hang up my engineer hat and go to law school.

I'm no expert in "stray voltage" but I'm absolutely shocked (no pun intended) by the conduct of the utilities here. The fact that they drag their feet with obvious problems with uncontrolled earth potentials that they are clearly at fault for due to negligent design and/or maintenance seems bizarre to me. Since there is no way to guarantee _absolute_ safety, there are reasonable expectations that there are some fault conditions that are not reasonably foreseeable or preventable. However most of these "stray voltage" situations are not unforseeable or unpreventable at all, particularly when it is brought to their attention by customers after obvious customer wiring problems have been eliminated as a potential source.

The levels of earth potentials being discussed here are clearly high enough to create several credible and likely scenarios which could induce heart fibrillation in susceptible individuals. While I'm not an expert in heart fibrillation and AC current, I did spend a brief stint in a clinical engineering department in a hospital and I know absolutely that currents across the chest of around 100uA can cause potentially fatal heart fibrillation in susceptible people.

Reading this sure makes me wish I had a JD and passed the bar in affected areas. You'd think there'd already have been a few cases of death and disability credibly linked to stray voltage. It fits all the criteria for a gold mine of a legal case: 1. Defendants with deep pockets 2. Clear negligence in design and maintenance, probably with lots of discoverable evidence with utilities analyzing the cost/benefits of fixing the problem 3. Fairly simple technical material that is unlikely to have much technical controversy on material issues among expert witnesses 4. A pattern and practice spanning the whole utility creating the possibility of class-action lawsuit.

Now that's a 40% cut I'd love to take. - it'd even make John Edward's drool.

You can't have a current flow without a potential, so where there is current there will be potential and vice versa as defined by ohms law. When the human body becomes a good path then there is potential for harm. There are many factors that contribute to electrical hazards. Current flow is only one factor and current flow cannot occur without a circuit path, a load and a source. When well designed,operated, maintained & respected electric systems work well. When systems fail usually, more that one factor is at fault.

Have had it for almost 6 years. Trial expected in late January 2008. Up to 12 volts in Hot tub and pool at the height of the problem. Our lawyers fee's exceed 1 million to insure our right to live in a safe home. Call with any questions. I've known Mike Holt for 5 years now.

Gary Smith

A Reply from: Mike Holt stated: Kevin, the utility DOES connect the primary neutral to the secondary neutral at every transformer that has a neutral. Just check out the transformers at any pole in any community in the USA. Reply to Mike Holt

Mike-

Your above reply is all inclusive and NOT correct. It is true for all areas that use multigrounded neutral distribution systems. However, there are some areas that use a delta secondary at the substation with no neutral used in the distribution system, just three phase conductors. In other distribution systems transformers are connected on the primary phase-to-phase and have two primary phase terminals and no primary neutral connection, thus there is no neutral current flow on the distribution system to enter the earth. In the dairy areas of California the multigrounded neutral distribution system is NOT used and the cows are happy – See TV commercials – Happy cows. In the areas without multigrounded neutral distribution systems there are NO problems with stray current or shocking swimming pools or shocking hot tubs or shocking showers from stray current flowing uncontrolled over the earth. Only in NORTH AMERICA is the bastardized multigrounded neutral distribution system used in the majority of the areas. NOT in all areas though.

One year ago we expanded our swine operation in Ohio, last January we stated to notice we were getting shocked while powerwashing in th barns. We checked for stray voltage and have recorded 3-6 volts. We have worked with the power company for the last 10 months but nothing seems to work. The thing that really boggles me is that when we switch over to generator power, the stray voltage goes completely away. Any help would be greatly appreciated. My number is 937-423-4065 Thank You, Jeff W

I have an issue that involves stray voltage, but it is a much smaller amount than the other cases I’ve read here. I recently purchased a new hot tub. It worked fine for two weeks and then the heater went out. The hot tub dealer replaced the heater and told me to contact the utility company and have them check the line neutral. They said they had this happen on two other spa’s, and after the utility checked the line neutral the problem went away. So I called the utility company and they told me that everything was OK. I told the dealer what I was told, and they said that was the usual response because the utility company doesn’t want to be responsible for any damaged appliances. But that they more than likely repaired the problem anyway. So they said it should be safe to turn the heater back on. I turned the heater on and the spa warmed up nicely. But three day’s later the second heater failed. When the spa technician came back, he replaced the heater once again and then checked for stray voltage. He did this by setting his voltmeter to 600 volts ac and touching one wire to the ground on the spa, and the other end he stuck into the ground (dirt). His meter showed 4/10th’s of a volt. He called the spa manufacturer and they told him that the reading must be 0 volts or the new heater will fail also. We started turning off various appliances with no change until we had the whole house turned off. But we still had the stray voltage reading. In fact, it had gone up a little to 6/10th’s of a volt. The spa manufacturer said that some of the appliances may have actually been absorbing the voltage. They said to check the ground rod to earth. So we did and it showed 8/10th’s. They told us that the voltage was probably coming from the transformer or maybe even a neighbors house. The transformer is about 100 yards from my house and my house is the only one on it. The next nearest house is about 400 yards away. I called the utility company again and I stayed home from work so I could show the repair man what was going on. And I showed him that even with the whole house turned off I get the same reading. He said that he had cleaned up and checked the neutral connections at the transformer and trimmed some limbs from a tree that the lines were touching the other day when he came. And that our power coming to the house was very good. He cleaned up and re-crimped the connections at the house and checked for voltage variations. There was a difference of 1 volt from one line to the other in the meter box. One was 123 volts and the other was 124. This was duplicated in my service panel when he checked the two hot wires in there. He didn’t see this as anything unusual. He told me that he was going to have his partner come look at it because he had a lot more experience with this sort of thing. Then he gave me his cell phone number and left. A couple of days later I called him to find out what his partner said, and he told me that he was going to install a recording device on the meter and that hopefully they will be able to figure out something from the readings taken. That was a few days ago and I can’t see anything on the meter yet. Maybe it’s in the box? Anyway, I’m not sure what that’s going to tell them anyway. The problem is not with my house. It’s with the current that’s flowing through my ground.

Maybe it’s me, but my voltage issue seems too small to be causing heater failure in my spa. I mean, we don’t even feel any tingling when we’re in the water. I’ve read stories where people are actually getting shocked from their pool or spa. But no reports equipment failure from it. I’ve lived in this house for 28 years and have never had any trouble with any of my appliances that would be related to voltage issues. So I’m wondering if the spa manufacturer is being unreasonable requiring that there be 0 volts of stray current considering how common stray current is in residential areas. I went to a friends house across town who has been running a hot tub without problem for the last 10 years and checked his house for stray current. His ground to earth reading showed a full 2 volts! And he has never had a heater fail, nor has he ever felt any tingling in his water. So I’m wondering if this could really be the cause of my heater failure. And if so, why would the spa manufacturer build a heater that was so sensitive to stray voltage considering how common it is. I did a search on Google for “hot tub spa heater failure stray voltage” and found no other heater failures caused by stray voltage. The only other ones I have heard of are the other two I mentioned earlier that were with the same spa manufacturer.

So my question is, am I entitled to 0 stray current? What if the power company says that this is within normal limits? I can see myself getting stuck with a spa that I can’t use. Do you think that this small amount of stray voltage is even worth trying to resolve? Or should I really be dealing with the spa manufacturer instead.

My house is an older home and still has the old round glass fuses for the 120 lines and dual cartridges for the 240 lines. Do you think replacing the system with a modern breaker type could solve the problem? The spa is connected to a modern 50 amp GFCI box, and that is connected to a sub panel since there was wasn’t another 50 amp source available in my antique service panel.

Any help would be greatly appreciated.

I need some help, here's the story: I installed a fiberglass in-ground pool four years ago at our home in a subdivision with underground utilities. A few years ago I noticed a stinging sensation when I reached in to remove the skimmer basket from the pool. I thought it was just a chemical in-balance issue causing my torn cuticles around my fingers to sting and never payed much attention to it. This past weekend a bunch of people sitting along the edge of the pool were complaining about getting “shocked”, so I tripped the breakers for the pump and pool shed outlets and pool lights, but the problem didn’t go away. I noticed if you touched the pool water and were touching the dry cement pavers around the pool you wouldn’t get shocked, but once you added water, zap. So, being a maintenance mechanic and knowing a very little about electricity 101, I pulled out my meter and started checking for stray voltage. I check everything from the panel in the house to the pool and found nothing, from the pool water to both the ladder and entry handrail, nothing. From pool water to the dry pavers around the pool, nothing, from the pool water to the wet pavers, bingo between 2.9 and 3.4 volts. What should I do next, any suggestions would be appreciated.

Would need permission from many people to talk to you. Would required complete bio and referrals also. Contact me if you are still interested

Stray Voltage devastated and nearly destroyed our dairy farm. Without the help of Mike Holt, our Master electricians/stray voltage experts, electrical engineers, Extension Dairy Specialists, meter companies, our State Representative, an OSHA electrical engineer and a host of others, we would no longer have a dairy farm today.

History: In 1959, my parents gave me a dairy calf as a 4-H project and from there we slowly increased the herd with a goal of 500 dairy cows. We continually built newer facilities, eventually replacing nearly every building on the farm. All along we relied upon our utility stray voltage experts to make sure we did not have stray voltage.

We started loosing animals, production and could not find a definitive or diagnostic reason; we lost hundreds of cows and had reached the point of having to give up. Our team of experts, consisting of veterinarians, nutritionists, Extension Dairy Specialists and a host of others, finally advised us to look at stray voltage.

We brought in and/or consulted with electrical experts, stray voltage experts, the State electric board, electrical inspectors and RUS, in Washington DC. (the Director and Chief of Distribution even came to our farm). RUS told us to contact the Fluke Corporation to confirm that the Fluke meters we were using, were connected properly. Fluke was interested in how their meters could aid in the investigation, resulting in the Fluke article, “Is that a Tingle She Feels?” Our electrical engineers, Master Electrician, stray voltage expert/Master electrician and Mike Holt, helped us gain a better understanding of electricity, the NEC, good electrical engineering and wiring practices that allowed us to cut off and correct the problems we could. OSHA required the correction of some of the utility distribution issues we could not correct, coming to and/or on our dairy farm.

Bottom line, if they had started correcting the stray voltage causes when it first raised its ugly head, in the late seventies, we would not have a problem today. Instead they decided to say, stray voltage is not the problem we once thought it was. As an admittedly, “dumb dairy farmer”, I have one comment, stray voltage is real and it can be solved, with the cooperation of all parties.

A deadly occurance where three boy were electrictuded in a private lake in Desoto Missouri. We did not get the follow up story but Two boys were killed and the third was saverly injured swimming in to there dock. It was first belived that the contractor/owner/father was a fault because the hot tub he installed was not inspected. As the invetigation went on proved to be incorrect. For the last several years prior to this occurance there were repeated complaints of people being shocked when making contact with the water but it came and went and I know was never checked out by the power company, just brushed aside. It was belived that a large power line was installed under the lake bed and now was failing. Of course stray voltage varies on line usage or non usages. To investagate this would be to study with equipment over a long period of time to get a true measurment of the leakage. The power company denied any claim to the case and claimed no reports of this occurance. The case was under investigation but no follow up to the investigation has been reported by the paper originaly to report this. All the information I can remember to give you so I can be researchedis as follows. Place of the occurance was: Sommerset Lake in Desoto Missouri. Time: Daytime, probaly in the afternoon. Date: Not for sure but it was more or around one year ago. Boys were attending a birfday party for Adam Jones. My best suggestion is to call the newspaper. Jefferson county leader. located in Jefferson county missouri, not jefferson city! Its a good case to follow.

I recall a situation involving the connection of the telephone company's newly installed telco block ground to a resident's copper water pipe system which was isolated by a length of plastic pipe to a wellhead. The resident was enjoying a shower when the phone rang. He got three 90v ring pulses before he could bail out of the shower!

Yes it would be o.k. to contact me. We are working on two projects right now with some trackable data. BUT it will not be a biased story or I am not interested. Too much sensationalism in the news. Like the old saying goes, Just the facts ma'am.

My company installed wiring for a new pool. The homeowner complained of a tingling sensation when they grabbed the handrails to get out of the pool. We investigated and found about 4 volts from the pool water to the hand rail which was bonded. After extensive investigation including a new nuetral wire from public service, we could not find the source. We still had voltage even when the main panel was shut off. I suggested changing all the metal handrails to fiberglass. This cured the problem in the pool but we never found the source of the voltage.

HI , WE MISSURE THEESE CURENTS AND VOLTAGES AROUND THE TANKS WICH REZULT FROM CATHODIC PROTECTION RODS UNDERGROUNDED ,

I have come across 2 incidents that come to mind without thinking. One was I was working in a drop cieling and found about 78vac from grid to a ground. Found the problem was someone installed new lights to some old rag wire that had no ground, only a hot and nuetral. Installed a new conduit run with a ground and that took care of that problem. The other incident was on a work bench row about 40 ft long with approx 15 circuits. (installed by a private contractor) The metal raceway that carried the wires inside to the duplexes mounted into the raceway. We discovered about 90vac on the outside of the raceway. After searching for a few hours, we found the contractor had connected 2 of hi nuetrals together instead of to the pigtails for the duplexes. When the bench workers plugged in their test equipment, it didn't work, so they swapped the ground and the nuetral, this made there test equipment work, but the return voltage was going straight into the metal raceway because the duplexes were cut out of and into the raceway, by the factory I might add and UL approved. Connected the nuetral wires correctly and changed the plugs back to how they were before being tampered with and all was well. Those are a couple that come to mind.After 24 years I'm sure there are more, but thats all I remember for now

I just read your request for stray voltage problems. Last summer the city of Manhattan, Kansas was having problems with stray voltage at their municipal swimming pool. It was serious enough that people were being shocked and it was going on for some time. I think it had to do with the metal fense. They stated until they could find the problem the pool would stay open. I have not heard anymore about the outcome. I don't understand why they concidered leaving the pool open.

Contact Julius and David Rainey in Bangor, Michigan.

Stray voltage from 345kv overhead lines was proven to have impacted their dairy heard production. They received a judgement in their favor from Consumers Energy.

Mike:

I don't remember that I had trouble wiht stray,but I would like heart something about this,please let me know anything.

Thank you.

Have investigated several complaints, willing to be a source of info.

Bruce Rockwell American Electrical testing Co (973) 316-1180

I wire up a bath house at North Carolina Umstead State Park in 2004, I did not know anything about stray voltage. About a month after final inspection, I had to go back to troubleshoot a problem, people were getting shock when taking a shower, well I turn off all power to the building, I check voltage from grounded conductor had about 2.4 to 2.7v the same voltage at the shower head and concrete floor. Well I reported my results to my boss, he ask me to add a ground rod, that did not work, then he ask to make a ground ring with a ground rod at each corner of the bath house and add another ground rod to the rod at the service, well that did not work neither, he told me to leave it and that he would find more information on this, to this date I do not know what was done about it.

You can contact:

My friend Elmer Has been dealing with this for nearly 20 years. Currently works on farms fixing bad wiring, interfacing with power companies in WI.

Can contact me for his phone number.

I have an excellent stray voltage story if you are interested. You may contact me at my office, 702-295-6747 or cell 702-496-1925. The case is where a Utility Grounding Electrode failed due to corrosion, resulting in an open, the current path then re-established itself through the Neutral Conductor overhead messenger cable to the Service Equipment in the Church building we were upgrading the Service in. The result was that even though we were locked and tagged and checked for absence of voltage, still unknown to us, the neutral load from the entire neighborhood was present in the 600 Amp Service equipment main grounding electrode. When this grounding electrode conductor was loosened and attempted to be lifted, the welding effect was experienced by the apprentice. An amperage meter was applied to the 4/0 grounding electrode conductor and it read 315 Amperes at 120V. The Apprentice was wearing proper PPE and no injury was sustained

In my years of engineering for a power and gas utility company, I have identified hundreds of stray voltage cases but corrected only a few. When present, they are mostly unavoidable or massively hard to correct. This is a classic Murpy's law area. There are untold sources of ac and dc and mixed acdc leakage, many of which are dangerous or at least annoying. Loss of utility neutral is one of the most dangerous, both on the distribution system or even on a service to a building. There are tens of thousands of miles of utility primary cables with concentric neutrals out there that were installed direct bury and the neutrals have corroded to failure. This is particulary the case in soil containing nitrates and phosphates, such as former farm land. Former farm land is a synonym for housing developments with buried utilities, as you know. And people wonder why they get shocks in swimming pools. You can commonly measure a voltage gradient across the surface of a pool and another gradient in the same spot just from a difference in depth. If you install ground rods at extremities of a house property you can read some amazing voltages and stray currents. I have meausured 15 volts between the neutrals of adjacent houses. It goes on and on.

VERY GOOD SOURCES FOR STRAY VOLTAGES IN OUR EVERYDAY LIVES ARE: 2- WIRE CORDED POWER TOOLS AND APPLIANCES; UNGROUNDED FLOURESCENT LIGHTING; ELECTRONICS EQUIPMENT; STATIC ELECTRICITY; PROPER GROUNDING WILL ELIMINATE MOST OF THE ABOVE. HIGH AMOUNTS OF STATIC ELECTRICITY IS USUALLY CAUSED BY THE LACK OF WATER VAPOR (HUMIDITY) IN THE IMEDIATE AREA.

With 40 years in the electrical industry, Technical background, then engineering, experienced in testing switchgear, power plants, generator paralleling systems, ground fault systems, power quality problem diagnostics, taught industrial motor controls and code for 14 of those years, presently managing technical support group for a 50+ member MEP design firm. Still teaching in the electrical commissioning field on a national level.

Point is, I have seen a lot, learned a lot, taught a lot and forgot a lot, but one thing that I have never forgotton is the lessons that I have learned from the experiences of others. The industry today is very fortunate to have computer communications, forums and the Mike Holt Newsletter to share these experiences and comments with others through.

If you are still reading this, the following describes a stray voltage or abnormal voltage condition That I had the opportunity of troubleshooting and finally located the source of. It is almost identical to the voltage problem in the shower that someone else posted and could not correct by adding ground rods.

My experience was finding 3 volts between the shower faucet and the tub drain screen in my own home 35 years ago. I only noticed it because of a cut on my finger which made it more sensitive to the low voltage tingle. Now I was sure that I had no ground issues since I had personaly completely rewired the older home we were living in at the time including a new service panel with two groung rods and a connection to a buried 3/4 copper water pipe that was copper from the street.

The following was done in an attempt to isolate the source either as being within the residence of coming from the utility. 1. Installed Simpson 260 voltmeter between tub faucet and drain--read 3 volts. 2. Opened the main breaker-- no change 3. Pulled meter---no change 4. Disconnected overhead phone service cable from house.---no change 5. Disconnected utility neutral from house---no change 6. Finally disconnected the utility messenger cable which was attached to the 2'' conduit service mast. ---zero volts. 7. Confirmed 3 volts between the disconnected messenger cable and the conduit mast. This was because the messenger cable is also connected to the utility primary ground and the transformer neutral. 8. Power company disconnected their transformer secondary neutral from the pole ground and the three volts was still present between the messenger cable and the service conduit mast. This next step in the trouble shooting was the most difficult and did cause at least some of my neighbors to question my intentions. It was evident by now that the source of the leakage voltage would be found at another service or residence nearby along this rural road and single primary line. (not so easy if it were in a sub division or if no one knows you.)

9. After calling several neighbors and asking each one to please turn off the main breaker to their own house which took lots of explaining, the voltage imediately dropped to zero when the main breaker was turned off at one house aproximately1/2 mile away.

10. Problem was further isolated by asking neighbor to turn main breaker back on and individually turning off each breaker (double poles first) until the voltage dropped again to zero. You guesed it right---The water heater was the source.

11. The next step was not able to be performed until after the neighbor's husband arrived home later in the day.---Bottom line is: There were two problems found that was causing the stray voltage. (a) First the upper heating element in their water heater had failed and burned a hole through the element tube which was connecting one hot leg directly into the water all of the time. Both hot legs were connected into the water when the upper thermostat reached the temp set point and switched the 2nd leg to the lower element. (b) Next, the service ground consisted of only one # 6 bare copper wire previously connected to a rusty pipe ground rod which had been severed by the man's lawnmower. He had made an attempt to reconnect it by wraping the wire around the pipe.

In summary, The voltage entering the water was seeking a path to return to its source (the utility transformer). There were several high resistance parallel paths for this voltage and current in this instance. the lowest resistance path was from the water heater through the copper cold water pipe to the street water main, through the earth and the street main to my residence via the copper cold water pipe which was bonded to the incoming utility neutral and their primary ground. The current followed the primary ground down road to the pole and transformer serving the neighbors house. The 3 volts that was appearing between the tub drain and faucet at my residence was simply the voltage drop found across one of the parallel paths that the current from the defective element was flowing.

So now you see we can call it a stray voltage or we can really cause some confusion and call it a voltage drop.

The final solution was: a. replaced both heating elements in water heater just to prevent a future failure. b. Verified neutral /ground bond was correct in panel. c. Installed new # 4 bare copper ground from panel neutral bar to 3/4 copper cold water with in 2 ft of its entrance and extended same unbroken to two new ground rods spaced 8ft apart. d. Bonded around the water pressure regulator and between the hot and cold water pipes under the house. (Today most inspectors will want this bond to be visible and near the water heater.)

I have only encountered this problem one other time since the first. It to was a defective element in the water heater however it was found in the same residence that was experiencing the voltage in the kitchen sink. The water system was copper within the house and some copper in the ground on the incoming supply. The water service from the street was 1" plastic. There was a ground rod and proper sized grounding electrode conductor, however the mechanical connection to the rod was loose and corroded. The fix was replaceing the element and repairing the rod connection with an acorn type connector.

I hope these comments will assist someone else with a similar problem.

Larry LeSueur CPQ, CBCP llesueur@barrettwoodyard.com 770-810-8800

Link to a very old company with a product for blocking stray voltages in rural systems: http://www.ronkelectrical.com/pages/otherproducts.html

Check out their "BLOCKER"

I have often wondered at the extent and strength of the radiated magnetic field of overhead high voltage transmission lines. I had noticed that my graphite fishing rod would emit an audible AC "buzz" when I held the rod vertically beneath midpoint "sag" between two transmission towers spanning a local river. Can voltage be induced in pipelines and metallic structures within this field? Are there regulations or guidelines for minimum distances to structures?

people walking past light pole in parking lot of resturant were feeling there hair stand up on there arms and hesd bulb to light pole kept burning out , and breaker was triping often. we found it to be the high voltage wires overhead i do not know if this is what your after but the clearances by the utility company were well within spec there was a measurable amount of voltage on the light pole itself from the static of the lines

I do not know if this the exact same item you are looking for but on one case a home owner was worried about getting shocked from her windows near her kitchen sick. About the time I assured her that it had to be in her mind I got the shock of my life. As it turned out, an awning company had driven a gutter nail through a belly board to hold up a trellis and had nicked a 240 vac 60 amp oven run. It only nicked one leg of the circuit but the nail had carried the 120 voltage up and through the chicken wire for the stucco and to any metal framed window in the house and god did it pack a punch! The circuit did not trip the breaker but it did run a good 30 amps through the nicked leg of the oven run and through out the entire house. One side effect was that their new water heater copper flex hoses and shut off valves to the house and water heater were corroded through in just a few months. Another time was a police pistol range had hooked up two conex containers (loaded with hundreds of pounds of gun powder and pistol primers for their bullet presses) to a 120/208 3 phase 4 wire system. They had one hot leg grounded and did not know what to do with the 3rd leg to their single phase residential load center. They called me in to find out why they were using around $50 a month even when the range powder house was closed down for a few months and nothing was on. Lucky for them that the two containers were raised up on pallets and had enough room between the two of them (again with a pallet landing protected with a tarp from the rain) so that nobody actually leaned against the sides of these metal containers in all the years they had this system up. It was also amazing that, considering the amount of powder and primer dust from the hundreds of thousands of bullets they loaded that they did not get dusted off from an electrical accident. Loose neutrals, bad grounds, arcing across high voltage insulators, high voltage street lighting shorting out and vaporizing the copper wire into glass tubing that carried the voltage plasma like between street lights hundreds of feet apart on one conductor systems and energizing iron sewer covers in the street mysteriously all come with the territory but the best was a powerhouse that build themselves on top of a shale hillside and imported dirt from a construction site miles away. They built their ground grid on top of the shale and simply covered the lousy attempt at their grid. One minor but important additional mistake was using split bolt and compression connectors and splices for their grid. They never could get the power plant to work in the 14 years they were open. They had imported the best test techs all over the world as the Japanese builders of the plant had given up. Nobody could figure out whey they lost control of their plant. It was only when I was visiting a friend who was bidding on tearing out the control room that I saw where they dug and that the ground grid was resting of shale that I knew what the problem. It was strange that they would not let me bring in a XIT test team and check for their ground until the new plant was finished. It was they that they found out that their new plant would not work either unless they allowed me to sell them set of XIT grounding wells. Even XIT did not see the need for deep wells but I had them make their wells 15 ft deep and we put down over 500 ft of #0000 bare 11 conductor ground cable and shot over 500 Cad Welds. When we finished we had reduced the resistance from 48 ohms to 1.46. Not bad. I can only image how many mysterious voltages they chased trying to find out where their control voltages went when they were totally ungrounded. If they had just let me bring in the gang they would have saved themselves building a whole new plant with just about $50k worth of grounding! Now I do not know if these stories are what you are looking for outside of shielding or better grounding but there you have it. J. Savage

stray voltage? id be interested to hear more about that. could someone list a scenario where this occurance would be more likely to happen.

Donald W. Zipse, P.E. has been involved in stray current, the correct term for stray voltage since 1970 when he presented his first technical IEEE paper. Since then he has present many papers on stray current, which is dangerous and hazardous.

He would be willing to talk to said reporter and give him the FACTS. He has been involved in stray current cases from New Jersey to Oregon.

As long as the utilities continue to use the multigrounded neutral distribution systems there will be dangerous and hazardous stray current flowing uncontrolled over and through the earth and the paths that this stray current takes on its way back to the substation cannot be controlled as it will flow over the earth, underground metallic pipes, etc. In addition, the bare concentric neutral direct buried cable is also a root cause of stray current. In one case approximately 5 cows were dying per day for over a year before the cause was found in a herd of 3,000 cows.

Mr. Lawrence C. Neubauer has discovered a dc component to stray current when it flows through re-bar in concrete so that cows and humans in swimming pools get a double whammy, both ac and dc shocks.

We have been involved in many cow cases and I have been involved in human cases also with stray current emanating from the utilities distribution systems. Humans can be hurt from using swimming pools, showers, hot tubs, etc. The National Electrical code is deficient in that the code allows and requires multiple grounding of the neutral allowing the earth to become a parallel path for the neutral current. This parallel path allows cows and humans to get electrical shocks.

The problem is the utilities have unlimited funds and in the case of Idaho when the utility lost a case to the tune of $ 17.5 million to the dairy farmer, the utility went to the legislature and got a law passed to protect the utility from being sued.

Watch for a forth-coming book about a dairy farmer and stray current.

Would be glad to talk to said reporter.

Donald W. Zipse, P.E.

Gentlemen, We have spent the last six years investigating injury and property damage caused by both AC an DC stray voltage in marinas, We have generated an accident list of 98 incidents, including 42 fatalities.We have published many articles, developed a marina ground fault monitor, and present our own marina electrical safety seminar. Currently we are working under a USCG grant to develope possible solutions. See our website for more information: http://www.marinaguard.net . We would be pleased to make our research available to any one interested. Jim

While working with the Navy PWC, in San Diego, CA. Working with in the electrical engineering planning dept. Received a number of calls that people were feeling electricity at different houses, at varies points. Mostly around the shower and kitchen area's. Took electrical measurement, and at some given points voltages were as high as 99 volts between given points. Two of us working on, the project, and took most the day to figure the problem. Problem coming from the Pad Mounted Transformer feeding the area housing. The transformer is being feed by 7200 volt , the cable was aluminum concentric, and the out side cable deteriorate. Causing the 7200 volt to find other returns back to it's source. After proving this to others, situation was taken care of. No one was hurt, that I know of.

Mike,

We have been conducting extensive research on this subject, identifying 72 such cases to date, and are investigating about 25 more.

Please pass along our information and we will send along a copy of the paper to the reporter, or anyone else who would like a copy.

Mark Voigtsberger (425) 347-1055

Stray Voltage is a headache in the bars and restaurants where I do my work. We measured this night 4 volts between the water under a floor mat and the motor that kept tripping the GFI that was on the new GFI. This is typical and all it takes is a weak ground and a wet spot.

Kid Dragon Electric 505-304-0216

I live in Hicksville, NY, which is about 11 miles east of New York City. In the past several years, that have been several cases of stray voltage happening in the City which always seem to get big coverage in the papers. Several cases have involved dogs that died as a result of stepping on manhole covers that somehow became electrified. I beleive that there also have been some cases involving persons who received shocks from other manhole covers. This problem seems to only happen in the city because a large percentage of their electrical lines are run underground.

I have experienced such a thing only once. However I was swetty. tep in that rm was aprox 100 deg. And I was not wearing my protective boots wich help to prevent from being grounded. If thats any help to anyone.

I am aware of two cases of "stray voltages". I was present when a child was shocked when exiting a pool (NOT electrocuted) which was not properly bonded. The cause was a power line contacting the neutral of the single phase supplying the home. In the other case, we investigated leaking copper pipes joints in a home where a 110 kV line had fallen onto the ground right at the distribution transformer supplying the home was grounded. The resulting current was sufficient do damage the plumbing.

This is a little off the subject but deals with induced voltage. I have a 2006 chevy truck that japs me pretty good each time I get out of it. I'm a former J-man lineman so I'm quite used to this event. I wonder about the paint job on my truck getting pitted or damaged and I'm a lot more careful when refilling the gas tank. Any thoughts from Mike's readers would be helpfull.

I have worked on many stray voltage problems. Many are on farms. Most of them seem to come from the utility companys using the grounded conductor as a ground. This causes some of the current flow to travel through the earth when demand is high. This could cause deadly results when using metal poles such as traffic signals or light poles.

I am not sure if this is stray voltage but we have a under ground galvanized piping system that was used as the grounding source and it is deterorating and I am inprocess of removing it as a groundding point. Yet I can get it to spark at any number of locations it is cool to watch the sparks, yet dont see it as a problem.

I live in India. Would help your media reporter to help on this subject any time.

Keeping in mind that there is a distinct difference between voltage, current, resistance and power, its easy to confuse the ternimology. I would be more than happy to discuss stray voltages and solutions with the researchers.

We are a forensic engineering firm specializing in electrical issues. We have investigated stray voltage complaints for both plaintif and power company. Source and successful solutions have been determined in all cases. We can perform detailed analysis utilizing preprietary equipment designed for the purpose. Our Associates are experts qualified to opine in court if required. www.brad.shepherd.com

About 13 years ago I problems at a inground pool that was installed some time in the late 30's early 40's. We found 105 volts to ground in the water in the area of the pool light. This was mesured with a fluke meter with 1 led droped in the water and the other connected to a ground post that was stuck 1 foot into the ground 25 foot from the pool light. As the probe was lowered in to the pool the voltage went up to the 105 reading. So we disconnected the wiring to pool light with no change. Then we disconnected the pipe to the pool light and still no change. We then disconnect the wiring and pipe for the pool pump motor with no change. Finaly we disconnected the service and conductors and still had 105 volts. At this point we called the power company in the area which sent a trouble crew to the site. After 2 days of testing we never did find the problem but we got it corrected.........The power company replaced the transformer that supplyed the power to the site, which was located about 500 foot from the pool up the bank on a rough rock ledge, and then they regrounded the same. At that point we had reconnected everything for the pool, pool house and service and checked for stray voltage which was no longer any where to be found. One of the line men said that it must be a "wild cat" from that old transformer but who knows. Well the stray voltage went away when the old transformer did so I belive the police call that a clue.

I will have to check with customer and associated clients to see if anonymity is required, by I have a really interesting story from last year I worked on.

I have a family member who used to own a dairy farm. He called me one day and told me he got shocked when he touched his milk tank. Also, his milk production was way down and he was having trouble getting the milk cows to enter the barn. Turns out he had a faulty ground connection on his evac. motor and was getting 30+ volts AC potential between his milking equipment and the ground.

I live in the foothills of the Blue Ridge Mountains with several large man-made mountain lakes. The boat docks have an electrical difference from the lake water, thus, folks get shocked when in the water, and touch the metal structure floating above the water when they try to exit the lake. This seems to be caused by the poor grounding at the homes that supply power to the docks, and by the use of metal conduits and boxes that require grounding to the electrical source. Stray voltages enter the grounds at the home, travel to the dock, and when a person completes the circuit into the lake water; they do get shocked. To eleminate this problem, I always use plastic (PVC) on docks. But even this is no good at times due to the3 neighboring dock having direct contact into the water by anchor cables, metal ladders, etc. These lakes are for electrical plants; one of which is a nuclear power plant. This nuclear station is often the blame for the stray voltage in the lake, but I am convienced it is not the water, but the docks. Electricians need better education in this area (self included).

I've had issues with some stray cats.

I would hope that your article is based on factual evidence and not just opinion and here say as is common in stray voltage discussions.

Thanks Dan Prater

When I worked for a rural electric cooperative many years ago in northeast Colorado, we had a customer with a strange problem. His cattle would not drink from their water tank. We went to investigate, and discovered that the voltage between the water tank and an earth ground was several volts. We pulled the meter for that farmstead, but the voltage remained. Finally, I asked the linemen to shut off the power to the mile of overhead line that supplied power to that farm. No effect; the voltage remained. By this time we were puzzled. The nearest electrical service was at least one mile away, but we decided to shut off power to that farm as a test. When we did, the voltage on the stock tank went to zero! Further tests showed that the submersible well pump at the other farm had a winding shorted to ground. When this pump was replaced, the problem was resolved. Soil conductivity was poor in sandy soil, but there was an extensive groundwater aquifer near the surface. We concluded that the stray current from the defective motor flowed from its metallic well casing through the ground water to the well casing next to the stock tank. The well casing was electrically connected to the stock tank by metallic plumbing.

In 2000 I owned DesertRain floating fountains and a customer in Alabama ordered a 15 H.P. single phase fountain for a oncologist in Huntsville Al. I went to oversee the installation. When the co-owner jumped in the pond to install the fountain he commented on feeling a buzz. Neither of us had a clue that it was stray voltage at the time. (He still doesn't believe it was, but he's not an electrician by any means.) The fountain never ran for more than a month with out burning up the motor. I had set up for the Franklin field tech to come out and see what was going on, but the customer was so upset that he had the fountain removed before the Franklin rep could get there and demanded his money back. It took me a long time to figure out what was going on. But the experience was so frustrating it was a large part of my decision to sell DesertRain. I am now employed by the new owner and can contact all the parties involved. As far as I know the fountain is still in my customers warehouse. Bill Norman 321-795-6627

Small amount of voltage in swimming pool. Gets worse in the afternoon. Everything grounded properly. Had power co. check it and they say it is caused by sun.

Thus far, the responses represent a good cross-section of the stray voltage community. As an engineer working principally with utilities, I would be glad to try to give the reporter some insight into the meaning of the comments which he (or she) might receive.

Ed Thomas

a friend and his wife were getting zapped when stepping bare footed into their outdoor spa. a circuit to a detached garage was not grounded and the hot was shorted to a box in the garage. spa was reading 25 volts from frame of spa to earth. reattached ground feed to garage. energized circuit. shorted. found and cleared short.

This reporters inquiries are inline with an event that recently took place in Chicago, involving electrocution of a Dog in contact with the access plate for a street lighting circuit. This incident could have been avoided with Ground Fault Protection of a level that would protect people and animals from shock, however, this would require proper maintenance of these systems, as even the slightest leakage would cause what is termed in the industry as "nuisance trips". Here is where economics and politics come into the picture. The incident was certianly more than a "nuisance" to the unfortunate dog and could possibly have been more of an issue had it occured during the warmer seasons with Kids in bare feet.

I am an electrical consulting engineer specializing in expert witness testimony concerning electrocutions, electrical contacts including contacts involving stray voltage (stray currents is a better term). I presently am providing expertise in three lawsuits involving stray voltage. In two of these cases it involves corroded concentric neutrals of the electric utility high voltage underground distribution cables. In one case a boy was electrocuted and two other young people suffered brain damage due to these stray currents. Another case involves stray currents at a dairy farm where over 300 dairy cows died due to the resulting stray voltages and the electric utility's improper grounding practices. Contact me at: donjohn@silverstar.com if you have any questions.

I am a Professional Engineer, familiar with this problem. The voltage is not "stray." It has a definite source and a definite solution.

What an incredible conversation. Thank you for posting this, It has been very illuminating. As a Real estate Broker its just another area of expertise to think about. Any Electrical PE's in the San Francisco area out there?

The Reporter would do well to talk to the underground service crews involved in the maintenance and repair of sub street level high voltage lines in older major cities. The vaults containing these lines often share other utilities systems including water and sewer. This makes it necessary for the electrical service crews to pump out the vaults in order to perform their work, as the water and sewer mains leak, totally submerging the High Voltage lines, Taps and Connectors.

Hi Mkie, I belive that the situition of animals getting electrocuted on sidewalks and or man hole covers is due to a loss of the insulation resistance of the conductor insulation. This of course causes a leakage of current to the surrounding environment covered with chloride (salt) up to the sidewalks and man hole covers.

Gerald Karas

I am always interested in "Stray Voltage" solutions. I think everyone agrees that by utilizing proper investigative techniques you can identify the source of the problem and provide a solution. The real issue is in detecting the presence of stray voltage before someone gets hurt...or worse. After several years of research and testing EFI Electronics, a Schneider Electric Company, will introduce a meter base product that will detect the presence of 5 volts or more at the service entrance. The product is scheduled for release in April 2007.

I would be happy to share this information with researchers.

psg123@bellsouth.net

We have 24 welding booths here at our tech school. For some time the students will get a shock of some kind when they are welding. As an electrical instructor, we grounded, and bolded everthing we coul;d, and still some shocks would occur. This could be static electricity.

Stray voltages are a real problem in some areas, like stray cats, dogs, or bullets each one has to be recognised for the potential damage it can create, and must be handled accordingly. We all know voltage cops are in short supply, like like regular they are assigned to write tickets to generate revenue for their city so where will we get the officers to catch these stray voltages?

I live in the US Virgin Islands and recently I had addressed a problem with the local utility. We install our meter/main near the utlity pole thus sinking a ground rod adjacent to utlity pole. The were two other residences near the same point. The problem occured when the utilties primary line (neutral) correded. The utility pole has a grounding conductor mounted on the pole. Guess what happened. Problems in every home where the grounding electrode conductor was near the utility pole.

Lighting struck near our house over one night. The next day my computer would not dial into the internet. Stray voltage traveled from the ground through the phone line into my computer where it burnt a resistor on my dial-up modem card. This all happen because there was no bond wire installed from the phone cabinet to the houses grounding system. Peace!

And now we have plastic well casings and pecks tubing instead of copper pipe. Then add to that two ground rods, driven into soil that is below an eves of a house where it is dry. We just about have no means of voltage dissapation.

Fields get built up in our bodies and can be dissipated to an oppositely charged or grounded field. If I remember right the farther the voltage is the greater the energy dissipation ie lightning form the rubbing of oppositely charged clouds and our atmosphere having about a 500,000 volt field strength.

Does the reporter see this with people having wool carpets and wearing a synthetic robe? Turn out the lights with these robes and you see lots of little sparks erupting from the surface. These robes are mini field generators. 120 volts is too small to create a field in a slow moving environment. But get all charged up and touch ground you will get a spark. My guess is these robes issue forth voltages around 5,000 volts and up as sometimes they crackle and that is the air breaking down. That is a pretty high field being dissipated.

Have this reporter contact me directly as I will be happy to speek with him maybe we will bennif each other in this matter

As long as we allow our power companies to undersize neutrals and use the ground as the fourth wire we will have these problems. Non-liner loads from switching power supplies is only going to get worse, and the untended infrastructure can not handle the neutral loads. This requires it to go back to the substation / generator through the ground. I can't prove to you that these things are caused by stray voltage, but I can tell you they will go away by correcting a stray voltage problem. Dairy farms get better milk production, less animal deaths, less mortality rates with calves, less still births, less downer animals, less mastitous and associated problems. In people, better sleep, less cronic fatigue, fibromyalgia and in some a few diebeties and heart problems. Power Companies are not all to blame. We have problems with equipment and wiring in our homes, farms and factories. Many of these problems are caused by unqualified people doing installations or using improper wiring methods. Tracking these problems is time consuming and expensive, because alternative paths for current will change with conditions. I could go on for some time about this problem.

As an admirer and loyal subscriber to anything that Mike Holt deems useful and important, I'll be glad to volunteer my services with regards to this study. In that respect, I would donate my services via hooking up an appropriate voltage event recorder (either my Fluke VR101s voltage event recorder or my Ampobe LAS-800 Spike Sag Surge Recorder) at no cost. The only prerequiste that I would need is that someone insure this equipment from theft. I'm a journeyman electrician with the IBEW and currently hold the position of Data Center Lead Electrician for a major Data Center owner in Ashburn, VA.

sincerely,

Dan Berio

My parents' had a swimming pool installed at their home last summer and there was a problem with stray voltage right from the start. We all thought it could be something grounded wrong from the new panel or power feed to the filter untill we turned off all of the power to the new panel. The stray voltage still did not go away. We tested with the positive terminal in the water and the negative terminal to ground and the meter read usually between (2) and (3) volts. (This was the strongest (3) volts I've ever felt). They were very upset thinking that this problem would never go away and then one day it was gone. They figured out that the stray voltage dissapeared at exactly the same time that they installed the new landscaping stone in the 3' void between the concrete around the pool and the garage. Needless to say, the pool is much more relaxing now that the stray voltage is not a problem.