I have watched this forum with intrest. I have been in this business for 33 years and I have never been ceased to be amazed at the level of paranioa and ignorance when it comes to this issue. I work for an electric cooperative where we value our member owners as partners in this electric business endeavor. Any member I speak with has the potential to be on the board of dirctors guiding the direction of the cooperative. Each member is my boss. We work very closely with our farm members when it comes to this issue. I can say with expeience that the vast majority of problems found are due to the wiring practices found on typical farms. We also have the priveledge of having a very experinced person at the local ag extension office who possesses great knowledge about stray voltage. The farmers typically call him first, when I recieve a call from him I know that we have a legitamate issue on our system. He will find all of the typical issues on the farm which contribute to stary voltage. Lack of grounding, unbalance loads, pinched and open wiring, outlet boxes filled with dust and debris (we measured 17 volts off of the whitewash on a barn beam due to this) wire laying on the floors with nicks and cuts and more. Our goal is to find the problem no matter where it is. We inspect our lines for neutral and ground connections and adjacent homes (bad water heater elements). We inspect phone and coax grounds. His involvement also is helpful in finding true stray voltage issues or if there are farm management problems. We have had many farmers spend tens of thousands of dollars on systems that "mitigate" stray voltage and still have production problems. When we have worked side by side with the farmer, ag extension office and qualified electricians, and still are not able to eliminate the problem, we install a neutral isolator as last resort. I resent being painted with the same paintbrush as some have done in this forum to say that utilities are evil and are not responsive to this issue. All of the other utility personell I am familiar with take this issue seriously and perform due diligence to abate this problem. The problem arises when some people think that all of these problems are due wholly to the utility and refuse to take responsbility for their part in finding and resolving the issue. As far as frequencies other than 60 Hz being discussed here I am at a loss as to how thiese are the responsibility of any utility. As I said before, there is a lot of ignorance surrounding this issue.

Comment to Chuck! Let me begin by saying the following: 1. I have no axe to grind on this issue. I am completely neutral when it comes to finding a solution. 2. All methods of grounding have problems. 3 wire delta systems, for example, are considered very dangerous, by many, since it is very difficult to detect line to ground faults and hence the fault can be picked up by a person (child) and kill them. This type of system has a number of advantages. 3. We ground primarily FOR safety. If we ground, we expect the current to enter the ground. This is not a mistake as it is implied by others. Radio transmitters use the ground as the other pole of the dipole. 4. Stray voltages are usually less than 5 volts and rarely over 10 volts. They do not kill livestock or cattle directly. The battery in my radio is 9 volts and does not include a hazard warning. My grandkids are allowed to purchase batteries. 5. I'm a consultant. I make my living due to ignorance and confusion. The confusion surrounding this issue helps me and lawyers. I do not like consultants and lawyers who distort the facts for their own benefit. My papers do not help my business since they try to explain the facts. I was not paid to write that paper. 6. I have the utmost respect for farmers. I truly believe they are the backbone of America and I would not try to hurt them. 7. I have said, throughout my career, that if I were a cow, I wouldn't like "stray voltage". I, also, totally understand the parent who has a child and gets shocked in a pool. While these voltages don't kill, they do scare the heck out of people (and should). No one is suggesting we don't try and resolve the problem with various techniques. The question is who pays. Let me give you an example: Years ago a lady had voltage flicker (lights would dim) problems she attributed with the utility power company. We spent $100,000 and determined that the wiring in her house (over 75 years old) was the cause. She then decided she could live with the problem. Another example: Many people want their power lines put underground (better reliability). When they're told that the average cost to put a residence underground (nationwide) is $40,000 per home and they will have to foot the bill, the reliability issue goes away. Another example: Computers need higher power quality....should you pay so that chip manufacturers have better power? I really don't know the answer. The only thing I do know is that everyone wants the other guy to pay....me too! 8. One solution is to use 3 phase balance systems, instead of single phase systems. Would farmers be willing to pay for this? I don't know. 9. Most transmission lines are not grounded and I seem to recall farmers see stray voltage issues near these....I could be wrong. 10. Lawyers always make money on these concerns and the money comes from farmers, residents and utilities.

Now to your specific points: 1. Shocks ain't fun and electricity is dangerous. That will not change in my lifetime. Shocks due to stray voltage are not considered lethal (OSHA - over 50 volts). 2. The 4-wire multigrounded system can detect faults faster than the other systems and has probably saved more people than the others due to this characteristic....but it's not perfect. Electricity is dangerous. 3. Some systems which do not contribute to "stray voltage", do contribute to more deaths (due to higher overvoltages and protective relay difficulties). It's a tradeoff. By the way, I am the inventor of the 5-wire system, which isn't perfect either, although some say it is. 4. Europeans generally use a unigrounded system ( I taught in Europe for 6 years). This system has much higher overvoltages, less stray voltage, and cannot detect line to ground faults very well, making it more dangerous. It is used for a balanced 3 phase system, which my house is not. It is much more expensive and is used where customers have small plots (<0.25 acres) and very low loads (no air conditioning, etc.). We recommend this system for villages in Africa, which have these characteristics. 5. Frank Denbrock is a fine engineer and person, as are virtually all the utility folks I deal with. They are really out to help you folks. I have always failed to see why farmers would think otherwise. They have nothing to gain from your problems. 6. Everyone wants me to run around and address these issues. The problem is no one wants to pay my expenses or my time (I'm not cheap). My boss tells me the business is not a charity. While I'd love to debate anyone on this (my nature), I have to make a living, so unless someone foots the bill, I'm on to other things. 7. I would suggest that the following: a. There are people out there who do not want this issue solved since this is their source of income (lawyers in particular). b. Anyone sponsored by a utility is suspect in the media (global warming has the same issue). If utilities paid me to work with you folks, you probably wouldn't trust me so what good is that? c. The parties concerned with the issue are not electrical engineers and are easy targets for incompetent engineers. d. Lawyers make money either way.

Again, I'm neutral. I just want to see the problem resolved and everyone happy (except the lawyers)....hope this helps......best regards....jim

Chuck your feedback needs to be posted on the Newsletter reply as well. Please do this so that others have the opportunity to ready your thoughts.

God Bless, Mike Holt, 1-352-429-5577

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From: Charles Untiedt [mailto:uuc@mncgp.com] Sent: Tuesday, August 14, 2007 4:25 AM To: distjimb@aol.com; Lawcrosdik@aol.com; 'Janelle Holzersmith'; jlush@brookings.net; 'Hugh Chester-Jones'; 'mrdairy'; 'Mike Holt, of Mike Holt Enterprises, Inc.' Subject: Stray Voltage

Hi Jim;

I read your paper in Mike’s newsletter and have a couple issues that I would like to have clarified, if you would be so kind.

First let me identify myself, my name is Chuck Untiedt and I’m just a “dumb dairy farmer”, when it comes to electricity but I have more than a little understanding about my life’s work, spanning over 50 years, which is taking care of my dairy animals to the best of my ability and without, outside problems being “injected” into my operation.

If you would be so kind, please tell me what person said that it was alright to shock even one cow with known intent and without good reason? Please consider this, if you had one hundred children and someone said that it was alright to shock 10% of them, would you find that acceptable? Would it be okay to shock 5% of your children or even 1% of your children? Personally, I find this completely unacceptable.

Your following statement also concerns me;

“For most of my career, spanning over 40 years, the term “stray voltage” has meant one thing, i.e. the voltage between the neutral conductor and the earth, resulting from unbalanced current. Since unbalanced current is an integral part of a 4 wire multi-grounded system, it was considered normal.”

My question is who defined normal? If you refer to the NEETRAC publication you will note that it clearly states in the section entitled “Evolution of Distribution Systems”, the following statements that I find extremely easy to understand, please see if you agree with the following.

Solidly Muti-Grounded Systems, NEETRAC states under,

“Disadvantage”, “Results in a neutral to earth (N-E) voltage, which can contribute to stray voltage.”

Ungrounded system, which I understand are used very successfully in Europe and many other parts of the world. NEETRAC states under,

“Advantages:” “Does not contribute to stray voltage”

Solidly Unigrounded System;

“Advantages:” “Does not contribute to stray voltage”

Resistively or Reactively Grounded System;

“Advantages:” “Does not contribute to stray voltage”

Additionally, there are transformations which are fully approved non-standard distributions that can be utilized to safely and reliably help alleviate situations were a multi-grounded neutral system may not be the optimum choice for safety and reliability. I would like to point out that Mr. Frank Denbrock, of D & A Consulting Engineers, has expressed a very insightful and true statement concerning ungrounded distribution systems and I will quote Mr. Denbrock, whom I understand to also be intensely involved in IEEE and the National Electrical Safety Code Committee;

“There are thousands of miles of delta primary distribution systems in service throughout the country operating safely and reliably.”

I feel the following is also inappropriate;

“The only issues that arose were from the dairy industry and occasionally from a pool owner. Stray Voltage was not considered dangerous , especially to humans, so the interest level in the industry was relatively low.”

The very first people to recognize that “Stray Voltage is Real” were correct and concerned for the well being of the dairy animals and hopefully to help dairy people from being “kicked in the head” or even more unsettling a young child permanently injured. The earliest recommendations from USDA and Minnesota Extension were to reduce the level of Neutral-to-Earth Voltage below the level that a dairy animal could feel it and I still believe this to be the only proper and humane way to treat a dairy animal and those levels are attainable with the cooperation of “ALL” involved.

I just recently worked with an extremely dedicated group of individuals, to help alleviate a stray voltage problem at a dairy farm and we were successful because the electrical engineers, the utility, the linemen, the electricians and the dairy people all joined forces to determine the causes and work to develop a plan based upon sound electrical measurements, good engineering practices, good wiring practices and good workmanship practices.

I have been privileged to be helped by a host of wonderful and extremely intelligent people including Mr. Chuck Newcombe (formerly with the Fluke Corporation and who now writes as the “Fluke Expert”), Mike Holt (who so graciously has helped me understand an important lesson in life, that being if you make a mistake admit it, learn from it and help others learn), Gregory N.C. Ferguson of Power Quality International (who helped me comprehend some of the electric principles of induction and coupling associated with electrical transformers and wiring) and Mike Miller an extremely intelligent electrician/electronics/computer/stray voltage expert/ troubleshooter and I am humbled by their unselfish help and mentoring.

As to some of your other comments, I would be extremely grateful if you would consider allowing me to speak directly to you.

I would also like to invite you to speak to and/or meet with the “Stray Voltage Task Force” that is chaired by Hugh Chester-Jones, Ph.D., PAS with the University of Minnesota, Southern Research and Outreach Center, Waseca, Minnesota. Hugh is an Associate Professor and Animal Scientist with the Dairy and Beef Production Systems. Given the fact that you are on the IEEE working group on Stray Voltage we would love to have you put on a pair of boots and see the real world of Stray Voltage from a dairy person’s perspective and more importantly from the dairy animal’s perspective. I have long felt that the best way to truly understand an issue is to first hand learn from others who have actually experienced the problem not from someone that shocks cows in a laboratory until they “beller” and then call that a vocalization from an unpleasant stimuli that has no harmful effect upon the animal. We actually have an excellent term for that kind of science and the initials are “BS”. (My apologies to the Boys Scouts, this is not a reference to you.)

Sincerely,

Chuck

Everyone,

Jim was kind enough to speak with me directly and very candidly on the issues of stray voltage and his paper.

I believe Jim is an honest and extremely gifted electrical engineer and is rightfully concerned with safety, as we all are. He is also in a position to help clarify the "muddy waters" of miss-information as part of the IEEE Stray Voltage Working Group.

Jim has offered to keep an open mind and review the papers and studies that may well have been used in a manner not consistent with the “Original” published results. There are numerous documents that have been rewritten and re-published, by others, omitting the true results, of the original work and then came to an extremely different opinion, which tends to support their present position.

Here is the challenge for all participants in this forum, kindly submit your comments citing the original research and the results of that original research results and not the published documents that are from a review of the original research. There are far too many papers that are unfortunately considered "NEW" research when, in fact, they are stating entirely different conclusions from the research actually conducted.

Personally, I have accepted Jim's offer to provide him with copies of the original papers that I have possession of and will proceed to do so. If someone has a PDF for USDA 696 please send it to Jim or me and we will have an extremely good start at clarifying the "Muddy Waters" concerning stray voltage and the new opinions of persons that simply reviewed original papers and came to a different conclusion that supports their "NEW" position.

Please consider helping Jim to be able to form his own opinions, from his review of original papers.

Jim, if I have miss-stated anything please respond and thank you!! chuck

Congratulations Jim, On a very informative article. To convey understanding words must have discrete meanings. In the investigation of marina electric shock accidents I have coined the term "Electric Shock Drowning" because nothing else seemed to fit. AC fault currents entering the water from a boat produce gradients in fresh water that cause "let-go" currents in a swimmer and cause him to drown, and no eveidence of this is found on post-mortem. I suppose you might call this "Step-and-Touch Voltage". The term "Stray Current", as used in a marina, refers to DC current (ions) flowing from one underwater metal to another, caused by a fault in the DC wiring, and which produces rapid and severe damage, as compaired to just typical galvanic currents. The term is used to differentiate the two. Would you be able to suggest another term? Thank you in advance for your comments. Regards, Jim kp2r@bellsouth.net

Stray current is one of the biggest problem in cathodic protection applications when the protected structure is in vicinity with other existing underground structures. Therefore, is very important to control the current closing path. Stray voltage is very important for induction motors (VSD driven) and to avoid this tranversal voltage the bearings are insulated. Usually, the best method for domestic applications is to achieve an equalization of potential for all metalic structures.

Having been in the Dairy industry, I feel "Stray Voltage" is a concern for farms with cattle. But, that being said, knowing what we know about equipotential planes, grounding and bonding, proper installation of electrical equipment by properly trained and licensed individuals should eliminate that potential concern. Which leads into a pet peave of mine. In many states, as it is here in Vermont, electrical work on an farm, considered "Agrculture" is not inspectable. In many cases, someone can install a new motor with 120volt single phase and not upgrade the conductors or check for proper grounding. Who pays the price if it fails? Insurance company when the barn burns down, or worse, a child playing in the barn when mom and dad are doing chores?

what would you call it when you have highvoltage line going across a traffic light arm of 50' and the lines are 20' above the arm and you have about 10 to 20 voltes

Concerning the comment " It should be noted some studies by reputable Universities suggest that the effect of stray voltage on the health of cows has been greatly exaggerated" I have noted and would like reference to "some studies". Is this in reference to dairy cattle?

Concerning the graph "approximate behavioral response levels", what exactly, is the response? Lowered milk production? Saint Vitus Dance?

Thank you,

Jim Burke's article is excellent but there is one deceptive phrase that should be qualified. He says the resistance of the human body is 500 ohms. This is only true if one neglects the skin. Dry skin's resistance is very much higher. This leads many to believe that a 120 volt shock the receive from an appliance is annoying but not dangerous. The same shock received while one is standing in salt water and has wet hands would be fatal.

How one uses the term stray voltage is not determined by me, but I think induced currents and resulting voltage drops should be included. Bob

The last lines from Mr. Burke say it all:

"The general reduction of industry participation in the standards writing function of IEEE has created a situation where non professionals, such as state legislators and lawyers are rewriting definitions, creating new terms and creating arbitrary limits and testing procedures costing the industry many millions of dollars which could have been used far more wisely to promote both safety and reliability."

Legislators, Judges, and Lawyers have those jobs because they weren't qualified for and couldn't find honest work. If they had IQ and ethical requirements, we'd need to have a draft instead of an election - and would probably be better off for it.

My apologies if this appears twice because I don't know if it went through the first time.

Mr. Burke's comments might be germane -- if they appeared 30 years ago. The issue of concern today is not usually 60 Hertz current but the distortions introduced by nonlinear loads, creating high-frequency harmonics whose biological effects are much more detrimental than "clean" current.

Studying the effects of 60 Hertz current is much like studying the effects of water pollution using distilled water.

Mr. Burke's comment that "The earth has always been considered a path for electrical currents..." is true -- and that's part of the problem. We once used x-rays and applied pesticides indiscriminately -- but stopped when we realized their harmful effects.

Several years ago, U of Wisconsin animal physiologists exposed cows for two weeks to a very low voltages of a higher frequency current and -- surprise! -- found subtle effects to the cows' immune system. Nothing more was heard of the research. No follow up to determine the effects after exposure to higher frequencies (or a combination of frequencies) that is characteristic of today's environment.

Several years ago, a pilot study of those suffering from CFS found remarkable improvements in many of them when the power quality in their house improved -- and when measures were taken to prevent stray current from flooding into their environment. Interesting -- but not interesting enough for any researchers to risk their careers and their cushy jobs by conducting further research.

Mr. Burke's analysis is characteristic of the deceptive and weak analysis proffered by the utilities. I'm no electrical engineer, but even I can see that his analysis is practically worthless and pretys on the ignorance of those he purports to educate. Science indeed....

California prohibits the use of the earth as a return path for neutral current. It's time to implement the same standards elsewhere, one of many measures that could update a woefully outdates system of distributing electricity.

I know electrical engineers can argue anything they like and could convince someone that the bullet fired from a gun placed a foot from the victim's face couldn't have harmed him because of the angle, velocity, wind speed, etc.

Here's a quick and dirty little test, devoid of all the language. The voltages associated with "dirty" electricity are often characterized as so low as to be insignificant. Well, stand on an insulated metal plate (leave your shoes on if you like), then attach it to a cord from an outlet, after installing a high-pass filter that screens out the 60-Hertz current. See how long you last. I bet there isn't an electrical engineer in the world who's willing to try this illustrative little experiment. They can come up with a thousand reasons why it's meaningless, etc.

The real reason is that they're afraid of recognizing reality. The high-frequency transients, harmonics and voltage sags and swells that are ubiquitous in the environment represent one of the greatest health threats in contemporary society. Talking about 60 Hertz current only (deliberately) clouds the issue.

The caliber of Mr. Burke's article is much lower than the information I usually see on this site.

-"InfraSource Services, Inc. (NYSE:IFS), one of the largest specialty contractors servicing utility transmission and distribution infrastructure in the United States, today announced that Jim Burke has joined its InfraSource Technology Division as Executive Advisor."

Surprise, surprise. Mr. Burke works for the utilities and therefore must be a truly independent source of information.

Is someone who works for a large corporation that installs systems of this type every day the one who should be doing an objective evaluation of this subject? Visit his company web site and see if there may be some reason for bias. I work in the low voltage industry and can attest to the fact that its not what you measure on your DMM that kills your equipment. Try hooking a Power Quality Recorder on your house and get ready for a scare. Its no wonder that electronics don't last like they used to. It is not the components it's crappy power. I am not an engineer, however, I have repaired numerous pieces of equipment that have failed for unexplainable reasons. It's funny that it is always varistors, transorbs, and diodes that go bad. Odd that some of the components that are designed to shunt over-voltage and control power quality on the circuit regularly fail. I don't think this is a component issue industry wide.