To you the Engineer. You are correct in what your saying about electricians. We need to patition the State of Florida for the changes, your preaching to the choir. The only person that needs to know what he is doing in Florida in the License holder, not the guy doing the work. The license holder is rarly present on the job. If every job required a journemen electrician certificate, most of your problems. In Florida and I am sure evey where else, the cheapest bid wins. The general contractor is forced to use the lowest bid to win the job. This is a visious cycle that causes terible wokmenship and fires. I guess if enough people loose their lives they will make changes. I feel your pain, PV

in reading the article on shoddy workmanship by contractors, i believe this can go both ways. Many times over the last few years, i have ran across drawings by engineers trying to be architects and architects doing enginering work that its pathetic. One recent job, the architect was attempting to show feeders for a 200 amp service being installed in an existing 1" conduit (previously 60 amp service) going to a meter center, which when visiting the job for a prebid look was not a meter center at all, but a distribution center for the entire complex. metering was done on primary and purchased bulk from utility. When questioned about his intent, and that what he was showing was a code violation, so that a responsible bid could be submitted, his reply was to figure it out myself. needless to say the owner was held up for 4 months and hit with hugh change order by the successful contractor. Another state project at prebid, a reply to a question by a prospective bidder, was basically the same answer. You figure it out.! After nearly 40 years in electrical contracting, i long for the days when architects and engineers produced a set of drawings which you could adequately bid from, and took personal responsibility for their work. From my limited perspective, its always the subs who gets blamed for raping the customer for extra work and expense caused by omissions and errors of the designers.

I feel the same way about Engineers, that Debbie feels about Contractors. In the 20 years I have been in this business I have never been asked for suggestions by an engineer. I joke with some other contractors that engineers put it on paper and We (contractors) have to make it work. I have lost count of how much time I have spent going back to the engineer with plans that are rejected by the Plan review department of the local jurisdiction. There should be a common respect between engineers and contractors. Both should take pride in what they do. Because of the attitude in all areas of construction, that of "I will do this job the best (cheapest) way for me-to heck with all others", construction is no longer enjoyable! If all areas of this industry would take pride in their work as it is evident that Debbie and I have and work together to make every job the best that could be turned out, then all would make money and all would enjoy what we do. The frustration would go away. Untill that time comes we will continue to point our fingers at others and say "Hey come on get your act together' and get mad at each other.

Wylee Orton Electrical Contractor Orlando, Florida

Thank you for all your comments. I see that I am not alone. As far as the questions about the voltage drop on the particular job go, the contractor redesigned with two poles on one circuit and 11 on the other - and voltage drop is based on both length and amperage. So, the 11 pole circuit would have needed to have #4 wire instead of the number 8 that I calculated using every other pole and about an 8 amp load. The poles were not in a row, so the length of the 11 pole circuit was actually longer than the length of my longest 7 pole circuit. Hope that answers your questions. A couple of poles also had two fixtures, both on the same circuit, which further makes this non-intuitive.

Debbie, I've read the comments posted about your stated problem, I sympathize to a point with you. Several of the comments: "Dave Filipiak", I agree with; I disagree with "Chas" stating that by using "means" you'll have the correct estimate, that’s a fantasy; I agree fully with "Chris Hale" for you to hope for a recovery soon; I agree with "Tony Mixon" where a job bids 2-3 times hoping someone to submit a really big mistake; and lastly I disagree strongly with "James Campbell" with his pontificating statement about most contractors don't know "electricity or the "nec" which is patently ridiculous.

What you're experiencing is the results of years of abuse to "good" contractors at the hands of various general contractors, consulting firms, construction managers who have driven them out of business. Mostly by being directed to proceed on a change order without having the cost accepted and then necessitating those contractors to take the owner/general contractor to court and try to get awarded claims, which only if successful results to pennies on the dollar. Your firm couldn’t operate like that nor would many others.

You and your customer although you got exactly what you paid for it isn’t what you thought you were buying. I like several of the other posting contractors have been setting on the sidelines, trying to stay in business.

With the economy where it is and the unsustainable low levels of profit this environment has produced don’t impart much hope for a satisfactory solution going forward

I'm confused. I think the following statement is backwards - #4 would have less voltage drop than #8, but would cost a lot more. Am I missing something?

The wiring in the original design was sized for voltage drop at #8. This unauthorized change would result in the wiring being #4. Or in a voltage drop that was double that allowed by code.

There's enough issues in this industry for all three sides (maybe four sides): I have attended numerous code classes (sponsored often by the IAEI), the contractors are there because they need the credits for their license (and usually don't understand the NEC), I rarely meet a P.E., and the Plans Exeminars (if knowledgable) are so covered with work, they don't look thoroughly. Then there are the inspectors that re-ingineer the project on the site (without the blessing of the plans exeminar or engineer) and the contractor, in a hurry to get approval, does what they want, even if it's incorrect.

I am finding unlicensed in-house "engineers" that draw plans for contractors and then hunt for a P.E. to "stamp" the drawings (for a handsome fee). Having taught the NEC at a two year college for over 15 years, I've found that no one really cares how it's done as long as it works (and passes inspection). Those that do go "for the cheep" only want the seal in the corner (and the P.E.'s insurance).

It ain't gonna change 'til somebody gets hurt, and there'll be enough places for the lawyers to look to make the most money on the entire project! I remember the pool installer that said he hadn't "grounded" (bonded) pool equipment in over 30 years "what ever the NEC said must have been new" (got caught, needed an expert whitness to say he was OK). I have Code books that go back to the 60's, read to him the applicable paragraph....didn't get the whitness job!

Interesting business, don't expect it to change, just keep good records!

wlr

I am electrical contractor, not an engineer. You are right, some low ball, cut throught contractor make a bad name for the whole trade. I sugest slipping somthing in the contract for the electrican that gets off your plans and starts creating engineering problems like stupid voltage drop blunders. Slam the low ballers bad when they try to make up a low bid by doing short cut and incomplete work. I will help the whole trade. Perry Vogler

Thanks for the reinforcement. You will be happy to hear that on the light pole job, after I had started to work on a compromise design, the customer told me to not do another thing and they made the contractor install the lighting as designed.

On another job, after the utility told the contractor that my office knows what we are doing, we began to get submittals and questions and the job was installed either as designed or with pre-approved deviations.

A third job ended up bankrupting the contractor. The owner fired everyone, finished the job and then left the state with a lot of bills unpaid.

This kind of business death and destruction at my hands isn't easy for me to take. It helps a lot to get the attagirls that have come through in this discussion.

My drawings are buildable, with rare exceptions (nobody is perfect - the most common issue is a discontinued part with the new part being the wrong dimensions and that is still a rare occurence), but most designs can be better. We try to get back to the contractor within two business days - but the response has had to travel thru general, customer, lead engineer, and finally to us and then back again. One of the fastest ways to handle this situation is to present your idea on the phone. If I reject it, you are done. If I tweak it and accept it, then you only have to put the tweaked version through channels. YOU STILL HAVE TO GO THRU CHANNELS! A phone conversation is he said, she said. And the customer has the right to override ANYTHING. But at least if you know that the engineer is on board, you have reduced the number of submissions and the resulting time. Also, I may email the team and let them know that I am on board and that the process needs to be expedited. We got one such submission through the process in 6 business hours.

The engineers with whom I team, and my leading competitors are similarly both conscientious and receptive. I know many others aren't. I expect that if you listen to the industry scuttlebutt, you can get a better idea of the jobs worth bidding.

I do hope that the owners representatives reading this column will adopt a policy such as, "When three or more bids are received, any bid more than 20% below the average will automatically be rejected unless that contractor has both a long history with similar, successful jobs for that customer and has been given the opportunity of reviewing his numbers and withdrawing his bid."

Thanks again. Sometimes it can be lonely standing strong.

Wow, it kind of makes me want to move to your area. It is sad that there are so many people in all professions that cut corners to save a few dollars initially. Most of the time it costs more in the long run. In my experience most of the people who think they are such experts at what they do don't really know what they are doing. I love it when I can talk over an installation with the engineer. They have more education than I do and sometimes I learn from them, but if I have questions and am told it is properly designed and will work without any type of explanation I don't think they are doing their job properly. I have worked with some outstanding engineers and some I wouldn't hire to design a circuit for a single switch and light. The same is true of inspectors: I get along with about 90% of them just fine. I recently was asked to fish some wires from basement to 2nd floor of building with poured concrete walls because they didn't want any type of conduit exposed with no explanation on how to accomplish it. I just need an explanation sometimes.

Having spent the past 45 years in the Trade to date, 20 years as an Electrical Contractor, the past 25 years in Engineering, the debates as to who is right or who is wrong has not changed much. As this is an NEC Code Forum, most consider this the most important thing. There is one more Code that is just as important and that is "Your Reputation". If you are fair and honest and stick to your principals you may lose a job here and there but eventually you will succeed even during Recessions and Gas Crises of the past. Don't Compromise, be honest and always try to do your next job better than the last job. It's called "Perfection", I haven't gotten there yet but it hasn't stopped me from trying. Pay attention to detail and don't be afraid to speak up if you find fault with a design. As much as we all try, I haven't met anyone yet that is 100% perfect all the time. And yes I have met those that were "Not Always Right but Never Wrong". There are many contributers to the NEC Code Book whereby we all benefit by it but only you can contribute to your preceived reputation and only you will benefit by it.

Dear Ms. Mann,

I take extreme exception to your generalized comments on electrical contractors. It has been my general experience with the designers and engineers are extremely out of touch with what it is like actually bid a job then to erect what the customer needs. I have yet to meet an electrical engineer that has actually worked as an electrician and or apprentice.

First when we are estimating or bidding a job in this economy the customer is always trying to nickle and dime us on our cost. Second when you spec and design a job it is months or years before we as contractors actually bid and with the prices of wire and pipe always changing we find that the material costs become 30%- 50% more that what they were when originally spec'd.

Then when we come on to the job sites we find that what you thought would work on paper will not work in practicality for one reason or another.

I believe that this age old oposition between trades men and engineers will never change untill all engineers are required to perform a minimum of a two year labor apprenticeship in their feild of choice before actually graduating.

I am not dismissing some of the examples that you gave completely because I too would be frustrated at one or two of the situations you mentioned. But when it comes to bidding please keep in mind that we have our own bills and families to support as well as our employee families as well.

Best Regards, Devin A. Pratt President D&D Electrical Construction and Maintenance 44 Mallory Ave Queensbury, NY 12804

These are the kind of things that electrical inspectors ought to be finding and turning down. They are supposed to be walking the job down with a stamped set of approved drawings.

What I've seen lately is that they are more concerned about wall spaces having receptacles EXACTLY within six feet (to the inch), or how far a smoke detector is from an air return.

I think Debbie hit the nail on the head. It does seem like more and more projects are being underbid and I assume that it is an attempt by some contractors to keep their doors open. We all have a job we have been hired to perform and we all need to make a profit to continue business. A project does go a lot smoother if the respect goes both ways. Don't hesitate to call the engineer, we are usually more than willing to help as long as the client's best interest is in mind.

Welcome to contract and project management. This is a typical problem. I have found that if you use the owners administration section of the contract that there is never enough teeth in the contract to get the contractor to perform. Low bid gets the job and the administrative costs and inspection costs of the engineering firm skyrocket. Everyone walks away from the project disgruntled and pointing fingers. When the owner wants things as cheap as possible the contractor is forced to low ball the project or reject it. Hopefully they can make up some of their losses in extras but a well designed project does not have a lot of extras available to cover the loss. When that happens you have to inspect every part of the project and have the authority to make corrections to the work. Peter Drucker's Management by wandering around spells it out very well. Catch the problem early and explain the work to the lead electrician and the contractor. Write detailed specifications and drawings and have a sequence for approving change orders. When the bid is too low we should be able to reject it and go with the second bidder but owners don't understand the long term consequences of a cheap job. I would like to see the inspectors be able to reject sloppy work and have the city stand behind them. If you are licensed you should understand what the basic requirements are for the construction and maintenance of a facility. Unfortunately your dilemma is not limited to your area, it is nationwide. Good contractors know how much a project costs and those with less experience get the work as they bid cheaper and we all lose int he process. My 2 cents worth.

Debbie, It's great to hear from an engineer (or other design professional) who actually cares enough about their desing to follow it through to completion. I believe many design professionals never even visit the site. Hats off to you. As an inspector I often play middle man between contractor and engineer. I have many horror stories of jobs which would interweave right into your experiences. As an inspector I, by law, have to inspect to minimum code, not necessarily the design if the design exceeds code, even though exceeding code would make a better installation. I will often send the contractor back to the design professional for approved as-built drawings before signing off. Todays economy has many seeking the lowest or lower costs for their projects without realizing the consequences of how cost cutting effects the installation They have to rely on integrity of the professionals they hire wether engineer or contractor. I have been in the building trades for 30 years as a contractor and now an inspector and I haven't yet found a solid solution to your problem. Not that we need more bureaucracy but I feel that if there was a connection to the insurance industry where, if insurance companies regulated the construction industry rather than the government, and I as an inspecter worked directly for the property owner's insurance company, I would have more leverage over a specific project, and if someone were to perform a substandard installation (as it was designed) their insurance company could deny any claims or coverage. Just an idea.

As a HVAC contractor we don't think engineers are mad, just a little delusional. Because most engineers do not have any field existance or make the effort to make sure the equipment or materials specified will fit. The problems you see with contractors, we see with engineers. You would think only the best are working now, but in reality, it's the cheapest engineers that are getting the work (the same goes contractors). And their budget is ussually smaller then normal requiring them to cut corners, missing things. You want to direct your frustration somewhere, you to GC's, building owners and site engineers. Who only look at the cheapest price and not the quality of the contract.

That sounds like a charge to all contractors to bid what the customer / engineer asked for. STOP UNDERCUTTING!!!! READ THE SPECS!!! BID WHAT THE PLANS SHOWN ON THE PLANS!!!

It become difficult to produce a quality product when you undercut. Then everyone suffers, the industry, the contractor, the employees, but most importantly the customer.

Add to that Inspectors ------and Engineers and Contractors.

I am pleased to hear that you are conscientious enough to go on site and do spot checks. Many times issues are not found until inspections are done by the AHJ. Then we are the badguys and we only catch a small portion I am sure of what is happening as in our jurisdiction there are only two inspectors to do all trades.

Kudos for maintaining your ethics. Just remember that there ain't no cure for Stupid.

Dave Piotrowsky Codes Inspector

I agree with the Engineers . All Need to sharpen pencils with out leaving out or changing specs . Code is Code & Engineers are the Experts not the contractors . Eng.Estimate is usually around what actual cost should be . Low bid is not low bid if it is dependent on extras to make a profit. We see a lot of smaller projects being bid @ about 30%-40% below eng. estimate & that means no room for expenses for survival of bussiness into next year . Hope all contractors want more that just minumum wages for thier future . Dont Drop the Scale of Expectation . We all need to Still make a profit . or The new Standard will be as little as they can get it done for , Not the best or most professional . Best of luck cff/ppp

Debbie, after almost 30 years as a design professional, facility engineer and currently a code plans examiner/inspector, I can tell you it all rests at the feet of the owner. Most owners (the ones writing the checks) are not technical people, but business managers, accountants, etc. When I read that you had to bid for engineering services, I identified the root cause of the problem. They have no respect for professional services, whether architect, engineer, or contractor, (and yes I consider electricians professional too). Those same owners would never think about bidding auditing, legal, or financial services. Yet, they treat their building & construction projects like they are buying paper for the copy machine. A knowledgeable owner that hires well qualified professionals will get a superior product that is actually a better long term investment. If they do decide to bid the construction contract, then they have the power to select qualified bidders (usually with the help of the design professionals) and get a real world bid which matches the documents from just a few good contractors. Blame the owners…..they are the ones that set the project in motion. And if the owner does not have a qualified person on staff to help select the design team and run the project, then they need to hire a professional owner’s rep with a solid reputation and resume. And no, my brother-in-laws cousin Vinny “is in the business” does not count.

Keep working hard and stay the course, a reputation takes a long time to build but only an instant to destroy. My apologizes to “Vinny"

Debbie

I know you didn't know that you would be creating a firestorm with these issues. As you can see there is a lot of emotion on this subject from all sides. I would like to share with you and all the commentators my first experience as a EC with a local very prominent reputable A&E firm. This particular firm is one of the best that I have ever had the privilege of working with. I had worked on their projects as a Journeyman Electrician while working for another EC. I had developed a great working relationship with them thru my Journeyman years. When I stepped out on my own as an EC. I wanted to bid on their projects. In order to do so, they required me to come do a prequalification interview with them. Even though they knew me as a Journeyman, they did not know me as a businessman. After the interview, they allowed me to bid on some of their smaller projects to gain experience an build a relationship on the business end of the contracting. In this business or any business it is about building long term relationships with other businesses that share the same views about quality, fairness and respect. This firm built those relationships with contractors, subcontractors and owners and were extremely successfull and well known. It is a long slow process and they would not bow down to mediocrity. I know longer see this anymore from the now generation. These guys were a part of the greatest generation. Maintain your integrity, high standards and surround yourself with quality people and build those long term relationships with those you know will elevate you to a higher level above mediocrity. You will not make as much money because it takes more time for Quality. But in the end your legacy will be like the firm I mentioned herein. I am proud to have been associated and had the priviledge to work with them. All of their building projects will still be around long after I am gone. That says alot for their work and the legacy they left us.

Sincerely Billy Weisinger

this is very easy to explain what is going on. You are right you would think only the best are left, but the best are scrapping by or sitting home watching Dr. Oz. In this recession our expenses are the same if not more and the customers expect a unrealistic deal on the projects. So either a company loses then bid by using his best because of labor or he must use less than par labor. Low bid kills quality. Engineering what's to spec the best and newest products but the customer expects cheap. I like to sleep at night with a clear mind so I have watched Dr. Oz more often lately. For most to get the project either materials or labor goes. hope for a recovery sooner than later

there are so many issues that come with this economy. one of the biggest is out here in the real world, i like to call it bid day. that is the day when all the trades turn in their best numbers in hopes of landing one more job. one that hopefully not only pays for itself but puts a few cans of corn in the pantry. never ceases to amaze me that 3 contractors see a job at 65,000,67,000 and 71,000...guess who gets it though?..the idiot that bid 35,000.. and the owners and the architecs take that bid..and they qualify that bid with a phone call to the guy and ask him if he has this covered and that covered..obviously he can't do the job for that dollar amount...but he figures he can buy the fixtures from home depot and the gfi's from ebay..and what the heck,he quoted wire 6 months ago and it's probably about the same cost...and there is always going to be enough change orders to make up the difference..so he loads up the station wagon and the aluminum ladders and off he goes.....meanwhile the owners and the architects sit back at the office and smile at each other and compliment each other on how they shrewdly saved 30000 today,how they defeated those evil contractors who had the gaul to add those crazy extras to the bid..you know, like insurance and fuel and a specified gear and lighting package...demons!!.......stop taking stupid low bids from unknown,unproven contractors...radical concept i know..t'm just sayin.

WOW, I am an electrical inspector and appreciate your position but there are flaws in your observations. First, the majority of contractors working today believe they understand electricity and the NEC, of which they have little knowledge of either. The changes they make to plans and specs is what they think are better than what was designed. Without the full knowledge, education and understanding of electricity their changes were cheaper on the front but cause great cost during everyday usage. They are not aware of premature aging due to voltage changes and drops, improper grounding and the loads that are on the neutral conductor which cause a varied response during everyday use. While I am sure you are doing the very best design you can the average electrical contractor is doing his best to destroy your design while believing the changes would make a safer and cheaper job. Regardless though if you keep doing your job I will do mine and the contractor will eventually learn that the best lessons will always cost the most.

The biding process is the problem ... It's like who can name that tune in three notes ! ... You end up with the lowest bid, and you deserve it ! ... I only doo negociated work ...

I can see why one would be bothered by the plans being changed without an RFI. Now I havn't seen the drawing on this but from the statement i gather that there is a run of pole lights with 2 circuits alternating between the lights. It seems that the total run would be about the same distance. So how can you go from a voltage drop requiring a #8 to a voltage drop requiring a #4 for about the same distance only because the contractor didn't wire it according to the drawing? I also understand that because he didn't follow the drawing that the load is no longer balanced. It is a great thing that this engineer takes advice from the Contractors. I have met too many engineers that would not take advice because their education was some how superior to actually doing the install.

In my area, I am seeing jobs re-bid 2-5 times until someone is so hungry or a contractor that does not intend to do the job right gets the right numbers. a lot of the better contractors saw this coming, reduced overhead, and would rather let work go than do it for free. I know the days of 20-30% are gone but 5% is just doesnt work for me. I would rather be on the side lines. Its ashame, that most paint contractors work on 50-75% profit margins in this area. But Electricians are crooks at 15%.

I found your commets clear and to the point. I have always belived there should be more communication. Between Eng. and contractors. Some contractors have problems with it they don't want to look foolish. Some eng. don't want to be questions. And heavon forbid you talk to a inspector. I get off my soap box. Have a great day and keep up the good work.

Hello Debbie,

After reading your letter complaining about contractors I must say that I feel your pain. It sounds like you are trading a value for a negative. I would like to recommend to you a book titled "Capitalism: The Unknown Ideal" by Ayn Rand. It has helped me to understand the term "trading value for value". After you have read this book, pass it onto a client, he (she) will be a better customer after reading it.

Sincerely, Jim Branley Branley Electrical Service, Inc.

It is refreshing to hear these comments from an engineer. As the electrical designer for design-built refrigerated warehouses, and industrial controls projects, I also have encountered substitutions by contractors that do not fit the system, with a great deal of work added to the project ... not necessarily by the contractor. It appears you too have received little help from the AHJ, if one was required. I've heard quite a few inspectors beg off by stating they don't have time to thoroughly check the project, even though a lot of the substitutions clearly violated the NEC, or would damage several million dollars worth of technology - none of which they or the contractor could fix. I've also noticed that Project/Site Managers are clueless on electrical topics, allowing anything that appears installed. When Texas adopted a state electrical licensing law, a lot of us thought this might clean up the situation, but bankruptcy appears to be the best cure - if they mess up enough jobs, no one will hire them. I teach the required continuing education courses for licensed electricians to renew their Texas licenses, and after 5 years, I still run into folks who think they know everything in electricity. I have no solution for you. After teaching classes for the US Military for over 25 years, the contractor problem appears everywhere - even Uncle Sam can't control it. Good luck.

The bid process is the problem, not that there should not be a bid process. I believe that if you throw out the low and high bid and take the bid that is closest to the average of the remaining bids, you will have the right bid. Architects/Engineers and especially owners will get the job they expect to get in that format. I believe that the contractor that gets the bid in this format understands that and will not take any short cuts. I can't believe that owners will take those low bids (that averybody knows is to low including the Architect/Engineers) and expect to get the results as they intended. All contractors should be preqalified anyway to eliminate the guys with the station wagon and aluminum ladders. As long as Architect/Engineers/Owners continue to accept those way to low bids, all of us contractors with good reputations that provide quality, NEC compliant installations will continue to ignore bid requests from architect/Engineers/owners that have a reputation of excepting those way to low bids from unqualified contractors.

I can relate completely to the dilema. I have been ridiculed and even threatened when I have had people under my supervision make corrections to their work only to be questioned and overridden by project (so called) managers and even the owners themselves. I have been really beaten up for doing what I know is right and made to feel that I don't know what I am talking about. It has weakened my confidence and made me second guess my choice to be a professional in the electrical field. I was sadly happy to know that I am not alone with this problem and I am also now unable to find a supervisory position with companies in my area. I can't compete with cheaters and the people writing the checks often don't care about anything but getting the cheapest price.

I'm not quite sure if you were involved in the contracting decisions. However, even the most casual observer would realize the potential issues that will arise from a substantial under bid. I'm sure the G.C. and engineers use the Cost Means references to get an idea where each sub-contractor bids should be. One problem arises when a residential contractor now wants to be a commercial or a industrial contractor and of course their license will afford them the opportunity, however their experience in those areas will not. I'm sure there are many other issues as well. As always, buyer beware!

Wow, your post does say a lot. I am a small contractor in NYC. I have to say that not many ELECTRICAL prints that I see (and I have seen many ) are accurate or even totaly to code. If you make suggestions during the bid proccess, you just lost the bid, due to the fact that someone will be cheaper based on the first set of drawings. I find it's just easier to make the changes in the field, NOT charge an extra if no additional work is needed, and make the corrections on the drawings. All my work passes inspection, and the engineers thank me for making any adjustments on their drawings that were not correct. Also as a footnote field conditions sometimes do not allow you to see what is going on, or you just missed something. On small jobs you just cant wait for the engineer to get back to you.

The best contractors are not out there any more. They cant afford it. I've complete a lot of high end residential projects, large retail and health care facilities. And this comes from a customers mouth after we lost a bid by 6,000.00 dollars on what would have been just a 22,000.00 dollar project.

We were doing an addition to a dentist office. We knew the GC and owner very well. Worked a number of years together. We were wiring an addition to the office we lost the bid on. I asked the owner why they didn't use the original electrical contractor that we lost the bid to on the original build out. And he said the company was out of business. Well we had found about 1500.00 of safety issues with the original build out. Like 120v switches on 277 v circuits. Bare wiring ran under a laminate floor for a dentist chair, just to name a few. this was just what we could see visually. I asked the owner if he thought using the lowest bidder was worth it with evidence of obvious safety issues. He said " the original electrical contractor came in 6000.00 less then us but it was only costing him 1500.00 to make repairs which still saved him 4500.00. ". I replied " yeah but the 1500 was only to fix what I could see not everything he possibly did". He really didn't care it was just about final cost. Needless to say we no longer work for that owner he has found that having his brother in law doing the electrical was cheaper even though he had no electrical experience.

I've found that almost everyone can do electrical work in there own minds and takes very little skill to perform a trade is their opinion. To them if you carry a license it means it's a license to steal.

I've been told by supposed superiors that I have to high of expectations of people. My only expectation is that your trying to do a job as professional as you possibly can and at the end of the day you can fall asleep with a clear conscience.

I see the problems within the trade getting worse not better. The economy isn't helping the situation but giving the wrong doers an excuse to use when they need to cut corners.

Money, Money Money. As a contractor and I consider myself a good one with a well educated crew, we also lose out to what I consider ridiculous low bids. My suggestion is educate the customer and convince them low bid is not always the way to go and continue to value engineer your jobs with contractor suggestions if they have merit. We survive because we are smart as well as know the meaning of honesty and integrity.

Hello One of the big things wrong here in PA is that the electricial inspector is also the buliding , plumbing, hvac, fire, inspector and anything else you can think of. You don't get someone that knows the electricial trade or has ever did anything in the field, just someone that keeps taking tests as long as they pass it, its official they are completely knowledgeable and know what they are doing. Electricial Engineers are also a problem they college educated on paper but do not have the feild experience. It should be a law that Engineers or inspectors work in the field 5 years or more.

My work-niche is primarily service, and maybe 40% is going behind electrical folks doing the most inexpensive installs they can. Some are licensed, some are not. Nothing is saved when it has to be done twice. I don't work cheaply, nor will I take a short cut. We believe in the "baker's dozen" formula,i.e., give 'em a little more than expected. After all the code is nothing more than minimal requirements is it?

Debbie,

I am a contractor and thoroughly enjoy our installations – when the installation is right (correct). Correct is not subjective in my eye’s it’s qualified at least by the NEC. Hang in there contractors like me and the likes do exist but there will always be those who don’t emphasis correct installations. I am not active with contracting at this time but most often we did not get jobs that involved adding to existing or remodels mainly due to the circuitry impact ahead of the new/revised i.e. we enjoyed verifying loads so we were usually higher priced. I am not sorry for this instead refined our nitch markets with more care. After 30 years of being in the electrical trade I can say I love it. I can say this primarily because I enjoy installing correctly otherwise I’d be out of it altogether. In my opinion the more formal contracts can be more gratifying in that those involved should be following RFI’s, change order requests and such to ensure the application lines up with the intended design as well as correct. I often feel the final build drawings are prematurely take by client or Architect and the consequences are always negative financially and time wise. To arrive at a correct installation it will always have a price, I say it is most efficient use of money at the design end rather from the field i.e. build from 70% drawings means the client believes the contractor group can take if from there – this always costs more then building from 100% or at least 95% drawings.

As an electrical engineer myself I can feel your pain. The way I see it there are two types of engineers: the large firms working on large jobs and the small engineering firm that focuses on small projects such as me. To an architect I am just a sub who has been selected because of my low price. To the electrical contractor I am a necessary requirement to get a permit and in their mind cause more problems than I am worth.

Of course as soon as there is a problem I am first to get a call. Of course I am required to show up and investigate the problem free as talks of lawsuits are brought to my attention.

If you look at the recent Florid building code you will see that they raised the dollar requirement for engineers from 50k to 125k. This to me is a reminder that because of prescription design an engineer is not really anything more than a responsibility person. It reminds me that small job engineers are on our way out.

I understand your concern from our view how do we the contractor bid the job the first time when we know this is happening? In our area we have a general engineer that when she snaps her finger you had better not be on another job when she wants you in her office. If you are you will not be in the bidding. in one small job, my bid was $32000.00 and was $8000.00 under and did not get the job. It went to a "hack" since it was a public building I took a look. Some of the work was "fished" in to existing walls and since this was one of "Her" subs, some of the work did not get inspected, it would not have passed because of improper material. How do we combat that?

Thanks for this letter. I just wish it would reach the right people. This is a problem that I run in to alot in North Carolina. Not too long ago I walked away form a Job that exceeded my limits of at that time 25K per project only to have a contractor down the road with the same licenses that I have bid the job for $25k. This contractor completed the job. This job was an animal hospital. This contractor doing the job made me look like I was ripping the customer a new one, but I let it go.. Shortly after the job was completed our Fire Department was doing a prefire inspection of the new building before it open..At the time I was Ast. Chief with the Fire Department so I was one of the 3 from the Fire department to do the prefire inspection.I was shocked, The job didn't look that bad to everyone that have not seen the plans.. but the electrician had installed those 500 Watt $10 lights when 150W Metal Halide lights should be, He also had installed residential grade switches & devices when Comm grade were called for. But you know nothing was ever done, No one ever questioned the installation. The building inspector just let it go. The job was installed cheap. Hey what do you do? Ticks me off... because I try to do a good job. How long can the good guys walk off a project like that and stay in business?One thing I still have pride in my work.

You are lucky you are not working in NY. There are few if any electrical plans reviewed by State or Municipal inspectors. Contractors are not licensed; nor are the third party inspectors and there is no move to license any on a State wide basis. Some municipalities have taken the bull by the horns but somehow they all seem to be politically motivated over safety motivated and allow home owners to do their own wiring when both the State building code and NEC make it clear qualified.people must be installing electrical systems.The test is to ask a homeowner what the fault current is at the service panel they have just taken the cover off of. Answer is: "a blank stare"

In my opinion, all commercial electrical designs should be performed and plans sealed by by an Electrical engineer,no Architects,or designers please.

I give the Architect or designer only one chance to design per the NEC for non commercial or other minor or single family work with service up to 400 amps.

If not approve able. then plans go back with the request for an Electrical engineer to design and seal plans.The same applies with Mechanical and Plumbing designs.

One cannot expect the contractors or the inspectors in some cases, to get it right if the plans are not right.This includes all other work as well.

Yes, the contractors must be qualified to do the work they bid on. No two ways about that. Especially when doing Electrical. Mechanical, Plumbing and for sure Structural. All these can be life safety issues.

The contractors must contact the Engineers for information when they run into a problem, or need to make a change to the plans. Legally, no one can make a change to the engineered plans that have been approved, except the Engineer in charge.

Seems like the whole country is on the fast track to get into the race to the bottom. There's a lot of ec's who are bidding low to stay busy but think about it when you get that low ball job you are working with a lot of other low ballers and you nightmare has just begun. Ultimately if the customer heres enough about bad experiences with low bidders than maybe they will not be greedy to get the work done underbid. Debbie how about making sure they get qualified references.

As a retired plan examiner with the last twenty years looking at MPE plans I can say that much has changed over the years in regard to pride in our work, no matter what that work may be. This includes Engineers as well as Contractors and others connected to construction.I went through my electrical apprenticeship many, many years ago. I can tell you that pride of workmanship existed in every trade back then. Not much exists today.

When you read the plans today, the engineers try to put most all the responsibility for the job on the contractors and are bidding the jobs without putting all the design work and details on the plans and so forth as done in the past. This seems to be the new trend.

Not all projects can be built as shown on the plans, so a lot of" as built" work will be forthcoming.

In closing let me say that the owners must use common sense when awarding jobs when bid so low, as to be suspicious as to quality derived.

I have learned alot from all the post on this subject ...

1. How did all these projects get completed with all of this disfunction between the designers and the installers ? 2. How can this country keep this kind of destruction to continue in this way ? 3. How do contractor continue in business with all of this confusion ? 4. Does every contractor need an attorney on every project ?

This is such a destructive process ... We all have to find a better way to build projects ... How about abolishing the "Bid Process" and turn to "Negociated" projects with qualified contractors that have completed a certified course on contracting ?

IF MORE CONTRACTORS WOULD JUST COMMUNICATE BETTER WITH THE PEOPLE WHO KNOW, AND NOT BE AFRAID TO SAY I DONT KNOW, THEY MIGHT BECOME BETTER CONTRACTORS. HOW ABOUT THAT, SO SIMPLE.