This article was posted 08/07/2008 and is most likely outdated.

2008 NEC Questions and Answers August
 

 

Topic - NEC Questions
Subject - 2008 NEC Questions and Answers August

August 7, 2008
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NEC Questions Based on the 2008 NEC

August

 

 

Here is the follow up to yesterday’s newsletter. This includes all of the answers to the questions sent yesterday so you can see how you did.

 

By Mike Holt for EC&M Magazine

 

Q1. What are the rules for installing boxes in a plenum ceiling?

A1. Only electrical equipment constructed with a metal enclosure is permitted in a space used for environmental air [300.22(C)].

 

Q2. Can two breakers be used to provide secondary protection for a transformer?

A2. Transformers are typically protected by the primary overcurrent device only, sized no higher than specified in 450.3(B). When this method is used, the breakers on the secondary side have no role in protecting the transformer. If the value for primary protection exceeds 125% of the primary current rating, then the secondary overcurrent device shall be permitted to consist of not more than six circuit breakers or six sets of fuses grouped in one location. The total of all the device ratings shall not exceed the allowed value of a single overcurrent device [Table 450.3(B), Note 2].

 

Q3. How do you size the ground wire in a cable tray used for parallel conductors?

A3. When circuit conductors are run in parallel [310.4], an equipment grounding conductor must be sized in accordance with Table 250.122, based on the rating of the circuit overcurrent device, but this conductor is not required to be larger than the circuit conductors [250.112(A)]. But the equipment grounding conductor in the cable tray must not be smaller than 4 AWG [392.3(B)(1)(c)].

 

Q4. What are the rules for derating multiconductor cables in a cable tray?

A4. The conductor ampacity adjustment factors of 310.15(B)(2)(a) only apply to the number of current-carrying conductors in the cable and not to the number of conductors in the cable tray [392.11(A)(1)].

 

Q5. I am told that all receptacles in a dwelling need to be child proof in 2008. Is this true?

A5. Pretty much. The rule is all 15A and 20A, 125V receptacles required in the following areas of a dwelling unit [210.52] must be listed as tamper resistant.

•    Wall Space—210.52(A)

•    Small-Appliance Circuit—210.52(B)

•    Countertop Space—210.52(C)

•    Bathroom Area—210.52(D)

•    Outdoors—210.52(E)

•    Laundry Area—210.52(F)

•    Garage and Outbuildings—210.52(G)

•    Hallways—210.52(H)

 

This rule as currently written applies to 15A and 20A, 125V receptacles installed behind appliances, above countertops and other locations out of the reach of children!

Note: From 1991 through 2001 over 24,000 children less than 10 years of age were admitted to the emergency rooms of study participating hospitals for injuries involving electrical receptacles. Most of the victims were male and used a hairpin or other metal object, in the home, and sustained first or second degree burns.

 

Q6. For a panel fed from a transformer, does the panel need a main breaker if it is in the same room as the transformer?

A6. When a panelboard is supplied from a transformer, the overcurrent protection for the panelboard must be on the secondary side of the transformer. The required overcurrent protection can be in a separate enclosure ahead of the panelboard, or it can be in the panelboard [408.36(B)].

 

Q7. Can I use parallel 4/0 XHHW aluminum for a 400A breaker?

A7. Yes is most cases. The general requirement is that conductors must be protected against overcurrent in accordance with their ampacity after ampacity adjustment, as specified in 310.15 [240.4]. However, the next higher standard rating of overcurrent device (above the ampacity of the ungrounded conductors being protected) is permitted, provided all of the following conditions are met:

(1) The conductors don’t supply multioutlet receptacle branch circuits.

(2) The ampacity of a conductor, after ampacity adjustment and/or correction, doesn’t correspond with the standard rating of a fuse or circuit breaker in 240.6(A).

(3) The overcurrent device rating doesn’t exceed 800A.

 

Q8. Can I use shared neutrals on an AFCI breaker?

A8. Only if a 2-pole AFCI is used. Single pole AFCI breakers will not operate on a multiwire branch circuit.

 

Q9. What is the difference between a plenum and other space used for environmental air?

A9. A plenum is a physically constructed chamber to which ducts are connected and form part of the air distribution system [Article 100 Plenum]. The space above a dropped ceiling used for other spaces used for environmental air-handling purposes is not a plenum, it’s an “other space used for environmental air” [300.22(C)].

 

Q10. Is a Ufer ground required if there is a vapor barrier under the concrete of the footing?
A10. If a moisture/vapor barrier is installed under a concrete footer, then the steel rebar can’t be part of a concrete-encased electrode. The concrete must be in contact with the earth in order to qualify as an electrode [250.52(A)(3)].


Q11. Do swimming pool lights require GFCI protection?

A11. Branch circuits that supply underwater luminaires operating at more than 15V must be GFCI protected [680.23(A)(3)].

Q12. Does a water cooler require GFCI protection?
A12. Electric drinking fountains must be GFCI protected [422.52], but bottled water coolers do not.

 

Q13. Can an outside transformer supply two buildings?

A13. Yes.

 

Q14. Is a disconnect required for a hot tub?

A14. Yes, a maintenance disconnecting means is required and it must be readily accessible, located within sight, and at least 5 ft from the hot tub, unless separated from the open water by a permanently installed barrier. This distance is measured from the water’s edge along the shortest path required to reach the disconnecting means [680.12].

 

 

 

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Comments
  • I think that the answer to question 3 is a bit misleading. It appears to be saying that the EGC is never required to be larger than a single phase conductor that is one conductor of a prallel set. I don't agree. It is my opinion that the "circuit conductor" for a parallel circuit is the total cross sectional area of all of the conductors that make up any one phase and that the EGC would never be required to be larger than this total, however it will may be required to be larger than one of the single conductors that are connected in parallel in some cases. For example if ten sets of 3/0 were paralleled to make a 2000 amp circuit the EGC would be required to be 250 kcmil, you would not be permitted to reduce it to 3/0.

    Don
    Reply to this comment

  • Just curious, but how did you determine that 422.52 did not apply to bottled water coolers? Thanks for all that you do for our industry.

    Don Haskin
    Reply to this comment

  • Your discussions states:

    Q1. What are the rules for installing boxes in a plenum ceiling?

    A1. Only electrical equipment constructed with a metal enclosure is permitted in a space used for environmental air [300.22(C)].

    300.22(C)(20 allows listed non-mettalic equipment. This is consistent with Codes such as IMC which clarifies the "listing" meaning equipment with proper flame spread and smoke develpment test listing.

    Bob Cohen
    Reply to this comment

  • Your discussion states:

    Q6. For a panel fed from a transformer, does the panel need a main breaker if it is in the same room as the transformer?

    A6. When a panelboard is supplied from a transformer, the overcurrent protection for the panelboard must be on the secondary side of the transformer. The required overcurrent protection can be in a separate enclosure ahead of the panelboard, or it can be in the panelboard [408.36(B)].

    A significant issue is the length of the transformer tap that would be needed based on the panelboard location and that the tap cannot leave the room where the transformer is located.

    Bob Cohen
    Reply to this comment

  • Ref. Q5: In a dwelling does the AFCI breaker feed a circuit guard faceless GFCI (Hubbell GF5350IA) which then feeds child-proof receptacles located in a garage, small appliance circuit, countertop space, bathroom areas,outdoors and laundry areas? A friend called me a few years ago asking why her kitchen receptacles weren't working (in a house built in 1991). When I told her to reset the GFCI button, she said there wasn't one. I verified that the receptacles weren't GFCI, then checked the panel, finding that there were no GFCI breakers and none of the breakers were tripped. After a bit of searching, I found the culprit, a circuit guard GFCI, similar to the Hubbell device. Further, in my home, circa 1988, the GFCI breakers were tripping when a double insulated hair dryer was used at the dressing table. I solved the problem by tossing out the GFCI breakers and non-GFCI receptacles, replacing the receptacles with GFCI receptacles.

    H E Wilmoth
    Reply to this comment

  • Mike, Please review you answer to question # 2. It may need to include the statement that where primary protection is set at not more than 125% of the transformers primary current rating, secondary overcurrent protection is not required. If however the primary OC device is set above 125%, secondary overcurrent protection is required and may then consist of up to six individual OC devices. The total of these six may not exceed the allowed value for a single OC device. See note 2 to table 450.3(A) Additionally for transformers exceeding 9 amps of current the primary device overcurrent protection cannot exceed 250% of the primary rating and the secondary OC device totals cannot exceed 125% of the secondary rating. The only other exception to this is found in note 3 to table 450.3 which provides a higher OC allowance for transformers equipped with coordinated overload protection by the manufacture. This is for special applications such as found with in Power Distribution Units (PDU's) in Data Centers etc. Thank you for the information you provide to this industry. It is both valued and respected as correct.

    Larry LeSueur, CPQ CBCP

    Larry LeSueur
    Reply to this comment

  • I have a question relating to the newsletter from today that mentions tamper resistant receptacles. What exactly constitutes a "tamper resistant" (child-proof) receptacle??

    Would this be the type that you have to slightly turn an outside cover 45 degs to 90 degs in order to fully insert a plug?? Does this take effect 1 Jan 2009 in areas that have accepted the latest NEC?

    Matthew Steger
    Reply to this comment

  • Q5. Please clarify, NEC 2008 handbook section [210.52] did not indicate tamper proof requirements. Thanks

    Eugene
    Reply to this comment

  • Are we going too far? 24,000 kids were injured from recepticle-related injuries over the 10 year period 1991-2001 - and that's sad. But 124,000 kids were injured from toys in 2004 alone. How about banning toys? It looks like they pose a far greater risk to child safety than electrical outlets. There are many other commonly encountered items that cause a much greater loss of life than outlets. I suspect that a manufacturer is using the code to get traction for a new product.

    plazorko
    Reply to this comment

  • "Pretty much" does not address the actual Article 406.11 statement that basically reads; [406.11] All 15, 20 Amp, 125V receptacles in all areas specified in [210.52] shall be Tamper Resistant Listed.

    Receptacles not area specified in [210.52] outlets: Attics. (with ceiling hatch access, service duplex) Ceiling Receptacles. (I.e. Projector, Garage opener) Inaccessible Appliance hookups. (I.e. disposer) Roof Area service receptacles. Crawl Space underfloor receptacles. (I.e. service duplex)

    Does the NEC mention any of the above as specified? Please advise Articles if so. (Above non areas can make a difference in competitive multi-project bid costs.)

    ben jacks
    Reply to this comment

  • Can anyone offer me any information on 480v ATS (Auotmatic Transfer switch) or metal clad switchgear timming and how to monitor the power quality during a transfer from normal power to emergency power. We are having problems with blown fuses on the CT equipment at the hospital during monthly load tests. I think the switch contacts are not closing at the same time. I feel that we should be mesuring action timing, ductoring & testing contacts closures. also the actual condidion of the contacts and mechanical linkage. Has anyony had a problem where the emergency transfer switches didn't transfer properly? Please, any information will be great. ( GO USA) Best wishes to you all and I love this site. Please send to

    Jack Peel
    Reply to this comment
  • Reply from: jesus g   
    mr peel, are you still encountering this problem with the ATs?
    Reply to jesus g


  • I am putting a seperate service in a detached shop. i see different size meter boxes for sale. what is the difference and how are they placed on the outside wall?

    tim
    Reply to this comment


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