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2008 NEC Questions and Answers - March - Part 2
 

 

Topic - NEC Questions
Subject - 2008 NEC Questions and Answers - March - Part 2

April 1, 2009
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NEC Questions Based on the 2008 NEC

March - Part 2

Here is the follow up to yesterday’s newsletter. This includes all of the answers to the questions sent yesterday so you can see how you did.

 

By Mike Holt for EC&M Magazine

 

Q1. We drove a ½ inch ground rod with a tested resistance of less than 10 ohms. We are now being told that this rod needs to be 5/8 inch because it isn’t listed. If the rod is less than 25 ohms, do I really have to make it bigger?

A1. Well, unlisted ground rods of stainless steel, copper coated steel, or zinc coated steel must have a diameter of at least 5/8 in. and listed ground rods must have a diameter of at least ½ in., so your inspector is correct [250.52(A)(5)(b)].

 

Q2. We have been written up for installing 15A receptacles on the 20A circuits for a residential kitchen. Have we been doing this wrong for all of these years, or is this a new rule?

A2. Where connected to a branch circuit that supplies two or more receptacles, receptacles must have an ampere rating in accordance with the values listed in Table 210.21(B)(3). Remember that a duplex receptacle has two contact devices on the same yoke [Article 100], which means even one duplex receptacle on a circuit makes that circuit a multioutlet branch circuit. With that said, a 15A duplex receptacle is allowed on a 20A branch circuit.

 

Q3. Is there somewhere in the Code that tells us the largest size of conductor that can be spliced under a wire nut?

A3. Not really. The closest thing you are going to find is 110.14, which tells us that conductor splicing devices must be identified for the conductor material and they must be properly installed and used. The answer to how many conductors and what size can be installed in a wire connector is simply “whatever the connector is listed for.”

 

Q4. We installed a two wire circuit plus a four twisted pair conductor cable for communications inside of a raceway to some gasoline dispensers. Now we are being told that we have ten current carrying conductors inside of the raceway and need to adjust the conductor ampacity down. Do we really have to do this?

A4. Well I have good news and bad news for you. The good news is the ampacity doesn’t have to be adjusted because twisted pair cables are not considered current carrying conductors. The bad news is communications conductors must not be placed in any raceway, compartment, outlet box, junction box, or similar fitting with conductors of electric power or Class 1 circuits [800.133(A)(1)(c)]. These means you have to pull those cables out of the raceway altogether.

 

Q5. I am having a hard time understanding the rule on how to size the circuit breaker/fuse for a motor that has separate overload protection. Can you please help me understand this rule?

A5. Sure. The motor branch-circuit short-circuit and ground-fault protective device must comply with 430.52(B) and 430.52(C).

(B) All Motors. A motor branch-circuit short-circuit and ground-fault protective device must be capable of carrying the motor’s starting current.

(C) Rating or Setting.

(1) Each motor branch circuit must be protected against short circuit and ground faults by a protective device sized no greater than the following percentages listed in Table 430.52.

 

Example: What size conductor and inverse time circuit breaker are required for a 2 hp, 230V, single-phase motor?

Step 1: Determine the branch-circuit conductor [Table 310.16, 430.22(A), and Table 430.248]:

12A x 1.25 = 15A, 14 AWG, rated 20A at 75°C [Table 310.16]

Step 2: Determine the branch-circuit protection [240.6(A), 430.52(C)(1), and Table 430.248]: 12A x 2.50 = 30A

 

Q6. I have two 225A roof top units with integral circuit breakers. We have an 800A breaker that we are going to use to feed both units, and are wondering if we can use a tap rule to save some money. The 800A breaker is installed outside, and there are two raceways to the units which will also be outside. Can you help us size the feeder circuits?

A6. Using the outside feeder tap of unlimited length [240.21(B)(5)], you could use 4/0 AWG (rated 230A at 75°) to each unit. The rules for this type of tap are as follows:

(1) The tap conductors must be suitably protected from physical damage in a raceway or manner approved by the authority having jurisdiction.

(2) The tap conductors must terminate at a single circuit breaker or a single set of fuses that limits the load to the ampacity of the conductors.

(3) The overcurrent device for the tap conductors must be an integral part of the disconnecting means, or it must be located immediately adjacent to it.

 

Q7. Can we use EMT in a masonry wall, or must we use RMC?

A7. Electrical metallic tubing, elbows, couplings, and fittings can be installed in concrete, in direct contact with the earth, or in areas subject to severe corrosive influences where protected by corrosion protection and judged suitable for the condition [358.10(B)]. According to the UL White Book (Category FJMX), “galvanized EMT installed in concrete on grade or above generally requires no supplementary corrosion protection.”

 

Q8. Does a fire alarm control panel need to have the working space discussed in 110.26?

A8. Yes, it does. For the purpose of safe operation and maintenance of equipment, sufficient access and working space in accordance with 110.26 must be provided. Remember that Article 110 contains the general requirements of the Code, and is applicable to all installations covered in Chapters one through seven (such as fire alarms in Article 760). Nothing in Article 760 supplements or modifies [90.3] the general rule of 110.26, so compliance is mandatory.

 

Note: Where special permission is granted in accordance with 90.4, working space for equipment that operates at not more than 30V ac or 60V dc can be less than the distance in Table 110.26(A)(1) [110.26(A)(a)].

 

Q9. We are being told that we must GFCI protect our receptacle for the washing machine if it is within six feet of the laundry sink. We chose to use a single receptacle for the washer and the inspector still won’t pass it.

A9. Your inspector is correct that GFCI protection is required for all 15A and 20A, 125V receptacles located within an arc measurement of 6 ft from the sink [210.8(A)(7)], even if a single receptacle is employed.

 

Q10. We have a load of 2000A, and we are using a busway to provide power. Because of voltage drop, we are finding that we need to use a 2500A busway. The inspector is now saying that we must use a 2500A breaker instead of a 2000A breaker, which is going to cost us a lot of money. Is the inspector correct?

A10. No. 368.17(A) requires that busway be provided with overcurrent protection in accordance with the rating of the busway, but this doesn’t mean you can’t have a smaller breaker than the rating of the busway. This would be similar to saying that you can’t put 10 AWG conductors on a 20A breaker, a practice that occurs every day for parking lot lighting.

 

Q11. We cut our wire too short in a few outlet boxes so I spliced on a couple inches of conductor so that I had six inches of free conductor at each location. The inspector says the free conductor must be “unspliced.” Is he right?

A11. Nope. He is correct that the NEC requires at least 6 in. of free conductor, measured from the point in the box where the conductors enter the enclosure, must be left at each outlet, junction, and switch point for splices or terminations of luminaires or devices [300.14]. Nowhere in this rule does it require that free length of conductor be unspliced.

 

Q12. I have a hot tub disconnect located fifteen feet from a hot tub and it’s plainly visible from the tub. Someone told me that the disconnect is required to be visible from the motor as well. Is this true?

A12. No. The maintenance disconnecting means for hot tubs must be readily accessible and located within sight and at least 5 ft from the hot tub unless separated from the open water by a permanently installed barrier that provides a 5 ft reach path or greater. This horizontal distance is measured from the water’s edge along the shortest path required to reach the disconnecting means [680.12].

 

 

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Comments
  • I find it interesting after all the field reserch and testing on the value of ground rods that code requirements have not been revised.

    David Almer
    Reply to this comment

  • Love these questions...keep them coming!!I always assumed that the free conductor rule didn't allow splicing of short wires in the outlet box!!! Learn something new everyday.

    shortcircuit
    Reply to this comment

  • I disagree with your answer to question 6. Overcurrent protection requirements are in Article 240, and 240.3 states "Equipment shall be protected against overcurrent in accordance with the article in this Code taht covers the type of equipment specified in Table 240.3." Table 240.3 lists Air-conditioning and referigerating equipment and refers to Article 440. 440.6(A) states "For a hermatic referigerant motor-compressor, the rated load current marked on the nameplate of the equipment in which the motor-compressor is employed shall be used in determining the rating or ampacity of the disconnecting means, the branch-circuit conductors, the controller, the branch-circuit shhort-circuit and ground fault protection, and the separate motor overload protection." If the equipment nameplate is marked with a minimum circuit ampacity, and a maximum overcurrent protective device rating, then those values must be used to select the conductor size, as well as the overcurrent protective device. If the equipment is marked with the minimum circuit ampacity and maximum overcurrent device, and contains a circuit breaker, the circuit breaker is considered supplementary overcurent protection, and is in addition to the protection provided by the branch circuit overcurrent protective device. What you are doing by tapping an 800 amp circuit to supply these HVAC units is grossly exceeding the marked maximum overcurrent protective device rating. I do not disagree that the 800 circuit could be tapped to supply these units, but it must be done through a properly sized disconnect with fuses, or a circuit breaker that is in accordance with the nameplate rating. In addition there are three other issues to be considered here, first, many of these circuit breakers installed in equipment are actually "molded case switches" and contain no overcurrent protection; second, if it is in fact a circuit breaker it may not necessarily match the nameplate rating; and third, the circuit breaker may not be rated for the maximum available fault current. If you don't believe me, ask UL.

    Tom Studer
    Reply to this comment

  • Another comment to question 6- these are rooftop units, and the tap conductors will be located above the roof, 310.15(B)(2)(c), Conduits Exposed to Sunlight of Rooftops, must be considered, which could incresae the tap conductor size, depending of course on how close to the rooftop the conduits are ran.

    Tom Studer
    Reply to this comment

  • Comment concerning "outside" tap conductors: I do NOT apply this rule for installations such as roof-top units or where I have to run the conduit along a building which would be damaged by a conductor arcing though the raceway. I adopted this practice as a result what I have seen doing fire investigations. I now consider any raceway run along a roof or building as "inside".

    Tom Smith, PE
    Reply to this comment

  • I strongly disagree with your answer to question 11 concerning article 300.14. It states, " 6 inches of free conductor, measured from the point in the box where it emerges from its raceway or cable sheath , shall be left at each outlet, junction, and switch point for splices..." It is saying you need 6 inches for splices.

    Gary
    Reply to this comment

  • Answer A2 - While most inspectors interpret the Code to allow a single, 15A duplex receptacle on a 20A circuit as it qualifies as "two or more receptacles", I disagree with this interpretation. All mechanical parts of a 15 Amp duplex receptacle are only rated at 15 Amps. Table 210.21(B)(2) specifically limits a 15 amp receptacle to 12 amperes maximum load. Therefore, placing a single, 15 Amp duplex receptacle on a 20 Amp circuit limits the total load of that circuit to 12 Amperes, instead of the 16 Amperes specified in 210.21(B)(2).

    Bill Riggenbach
    Reply to this comment

  • With respect to Answer A4, what about exception 800.133(A)(1)(c) Exception No. 3 "As permitted by 620.36?

    If the jacket insulation of all the conductors met the highest voltage in the raceway, and the shielded conductors were for signalling, would this not apply?

    halfLoad
    Reply to this comment

  • Thank you, Mike and staff you are appreciated

    T Quesada
    Reply to this comment

  • This is more a question, rather than a comment, i recently purchased your Electrical Formulas book and love it but do have one question, when sizing branch circuits and protective devices for Air Conditioning, how do handle the units only listed by tonnage like 5 tons or 10 tons and could you clarify when to size on the tons or KW of the AC vice the heating capacity?

    Dwayne
    Reply to this comment

  • For Q5: "(B) All Motors. A motor branch-circuit short-circuit and ground-fault protective device must be capable of carrying the motor’s starting current." The key word here,"carrying" seems to be a gray area as far as GFP's are concerned. Are these devices motor load rated for disconnecting/reconnecting motors under load or during start? Do they have to be?

    Mike, thank you for providing the food for thought.

    Mark "One Wire" Prairie
    Reply to this comment

  • Question 4 Doesn't Exception #3 of 800.133 A 1 C which refers to 620.36 allow this if all conductors are insulated to the maximum voltage applied to any conductor in the raceway. Almost all electronic Gasoline dispensers, which are UL approved, bring the communications and power wires down from the head in the same conduit ending in a single junction box.

    Jack Wendler
    Reply to this comment

  • In reference to question #4 : I want to clarify that today exist another alternative to run together power conductors with low voltage communication cables. The alternative is "Simtra" power cable, this cable has a permanent ferrite barrier technology. UL Listed and recognized, "SIMTRA" cables meet or exceed the NEC regulations and safety requirements necessary for the installation of power and low-voltage communications cables within a "single conduit". NEC 2008 Excerts revelant to the application and approval of "SIMTRA" Barrier Power Cables, see NEC Sections 725.136.B, 760.136.B, 770.133 Exception No.5, 800.133.A.1.c Exception No.1, 820.133.A.1.b.Exception No.1, 830.133.A.1.d.Exception No.1.

    Alberto E. Planas, P. E.
    Reply to this comment

  • Q4. I just looked up on Dresser Wayne's website the installation instructions for the 3 Vista series gasoline dispensers, and it shows the data communications, and power wires in the same conduit and specifically says that data and power can be installed in the same conduit in a bolded note. As this is a UL Listed device aren't we required to follow the manufacturers installation instructions which specifically allow this?

    Jack

    Jack Wendler
    Reply to this comment

  • I have a question about a specific subpanel install in a detached garage.

    The main panel is in the home's basement and the garage subpanel was fed with only a 3 conductor system (2 hots and 1 neutral) and no ground. The service cable was an overhead feeder and there is no metal fence, underground water pipe, etc. connecting the home and detached garage. I recall that there are some exceptions to the subpanel bonding rule if there is a metal chain link fence, for example, connecting the home and garage.

    The grounding and neutral wires in the subpanel were bonded in the subpanel and there was a separate ground rod outside the detached garage for this subpanel. I believe in this instance, grounding and neutral wires are permitted to be bonded in the subpanel. Am I correct?

    Thanks. Matt

    Matthew Steger
    Reply to this comment

  • I can not believe the questions some of these people, not electricians.ask. Retired IBEW 40 years Please go to school

    Jack James
    Reply to this comment

  • Question 10: What information may have been overlooked is the 2000A is defined as the "load". Therefore, the 2000A breaker would have to be 100 percent rated, and if not, would need to be rated 2500A for the 2000A load. And then the busway would have to be rated 2500A since the breaker is now rated 2500A. The "load" was not stated as to whether it is continuous or non-continuous, but for safety, would be considered continuous. However, the "now" part of the statement from the inspector leads me to think that the load rating was not a concern in the first place.

    Wayne Atkinson
    Reply to this comment

  • What is a fair price for a small comercial per square ft

    Scott Griggs
    Reply to this comment


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